Heaven is our choice

Status
Not open for further replies.
DaddyGirl said:
Fortunately, even if deep thinkers like Aquinas and Augustine believe most people end up in a Christian “hell”-- we have no solid proof that anyone has ever gone to this place after their body has died here on earth.

So that’s one piece of good news to cheer you up!

I often find it hard to understand that so many people who call themselves Christian and say they believe in and have faith in all that their religion teaches…would freely of their own will choose the hell that is described instead of the heaven.

Can it be that they really don’t believe they will actually go to this hell?

If I thought that there was an actual, real hell of eternal fire, damnation and gnashing of the teeth that I would go to if I did certain things on the “go to hell” list…and I had “free will” to choose either…I’d choose the door and actions called Heaven.
Click to expand...
Certainly some are in hell.

Matthew 23:13-15
13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.
Matthew 26:20-24
20 But when it was evening, he sat down with his twelve disciples.
21 And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me.
22 And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord?
23 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me.
24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
 
NoelFitz said:
W
God seems to play no role, or grace as it is always there on offer. All we have to do is freely make the choice to go to heaven. It is like going into a shop and picking what we want, and there is no need to pay.
Click to expand...
Haven’t you noticed, in all those years, that God works in people’s lives in subtle ways to draw them closer? He doesn’t just lay it out in the Bible and say, Take it or leave it, your choice.

No, that’s why we pray for the conversion of friends, because it helps God work in their lives.
I’ve seen it very clearly in my own life. I could delineate the steps God took to draw me to Him, and then to the Catholic church, It took him 50 years, and he’s still working at it. But if even I can see what he’s done for me, I’m sure he’s done other things for others that we’re not aware of.

God is very active in leading us to salvation, and of course he does it through the merits and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

.
 
NoelFitz said:
mVitus #5,

throughout history most Catholics believed that without baptism one could not gain heaven, hence the bulk of mankind was excluded from heaven.
Click to expand...
Noel, you never heard of baptism of desire in the Baltimore Catechism of happy memory? Of course water baptism was the preferred if possible, which is why the message to ‘go and teach the nations’ was and is so important. But both baptism of desire and baptism of blood were sufficient. And baptism of desire was known and taught by the Early Christian Fathers, it is not something modern.

Therefore, 'the bulk of mankind was NOT excluded from heaven".

But, if comfort is what you desire, and what you have not yet found, remember that God is closest to you when He seems farthest away. Furthermore, if you feel your prayers have not been heard, that doesn’t mean that they may not have been and that the seed for the flower of your greatest understanding, hope, and joy might not be just about to burst through your soul.
 
Sarcelle said:
God’s will is that we all spend eternity with him. We however can decide differently.

To that I say God’s will be done. So I ceaselessly pray for all us.

We must not give up hope. Catholics do not believe that some or most people are predestined for hell.
Click to expand...
if it is Gods will that we all achieve heaven and to declare “Gods will, will be done” seems a bit contradictory if satan succeeds at drawing majority of people away from God and more end up in hell…right?

If this is true, then at the end of time, the statement of “Gods will, will NOT be done” is more accurate then?
 
Mikekle,

thank you for your reply. Succinctly you pose my concern.

But our sanctification is the will of God. We can hope all will be saved. Hans Urs von Balthasar goes as far as Catholics can, holding Catholics can hope no one ends up in hell.

*I claim nothing more than this: that these statements * give us a right to have hope for all men, which simultaneously implies that I see no need to take the step from the threats to the positing of a hell occupied by our brothers and sisters, through which our hopes would come to naught.

I do not wish to contradict anyone who, as a Christian, cannot be happy without denying the universality of hope to us so that he can be certain of his full hell: that is, after all, the view of a large number of important theologians, especially among the followers of Augustine. But, in return, I would like to request that one be permitted to hope that God’s redemptive work for his creation might succeed. Certainty cannot be attained, but hope can be justified.[13]**
 
Tantum Ergo,
Thanks
I believe that as well as sacramental baptism, baptism of blood and of desire exist. In fact at present some think all are given grace, no one is excluded from heaven.
 
Viki63,

your post is full of hope, but it is hard not to be discouraged in Ireland now. Those attending Catholic churches are decreasing in numbers, and there seems a great hatred of the church among former Catholics.

In discussions in CA here I have been informed that pornography and sex outside marriage are grave sins, hence (other things being equal - clear knowledge and full consent) those practicing these are in mortal sin, and bound for hell.

How many of us will hear the words:
  • ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink’
    (Matt. 25:41-42 NAB)*
 
e_c

you wrote ‘Ultimately the mystery of grace is something inscrutable. God knows what He’s doing… Let’s trust Him!’

I fully agree. You sum the whole thing up, and answer my concerns. Thank you.

Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great: (NRSV, 1 Tim. 3:16)
 
Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
I Thirst for You - A Prayer based on words by Our Lord Jesus Christ to Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta
It is true. I stand at the door of your heart, day and night. Even when you are not listening, even when you doubt it could be Me, I am there: waiting for even the smallest signal of your response, even the smallest suggestion of an invitation that will permit Me to enter.
I want you to know that each time you invite Me, I do come always, without fail. Silent and invisible I come, yet with a power and a love most infinite, bringing the many gifts of My Spirit. I come with My mercy, with My desire to forgive and heal you, with a love for you that goes beyond your comprehension. A love in each detail, so grand like the love I have received from My Father “I have loved all of you as the Father has loved me…” John 15:10
I come longing to console you and give you strength, to lift you up and bind all your wounds. I bring you My light, to dispel your darkness and all your doubts. I come with My power, that allows me to carry you: with My grace, to touch your heart and transform your life. I come with My peace, to calm your soul.
I know you like the palm of my hand. I know everything about you. Even the hairs of your head I have counted. Nothing in your life is unimportant to Me. I have followed you through the years and I have always loved you even when you have strayed. I know every one of your problems. I know your needs and your worries and yes, I know all your sins. But I tell you again that I love you, not for what you have or ceased to do, I love you for you, for the beauty and the dignity My Father gave you by creating you in His own image. It is a dignity you have often forgotten, a beauty you have tarnished by sin. But I love you as you are, and I have shed My Blood to rescue you.
If you only ask Me with faith, My grace will touch all that needs changing in your life: I will give you the strength to free yourself from sin and from all its destructive power. I know what is in your heart, I know your loneliness and all your wounds, the rejections, the judgments, the humiliations, I carried it all before you. And I carried it all for you, so you could share My strength and My victory.
I know, above all, your need for love, how much you are thirsting for love and tendernesss. Yet, how many times have you desired to satisfy your thirst in vain, seeking that love with selfishness, trying to fill the void within you with passing pleasures, with the even greater emptiness of sin. Do you thirst for love? "Come to Me all you who thirst … " (John 7:37). I will satisfy you and fill you. Do you thirst to be loved? I love you more than you can imagine … to the point of dying on a cross for you.
I THIRST FOR YOU. Yes, that is the only way to even begin to describe My love for you. I THIRST FOR YOU. I thirst to love you and to be loved by you . So precious are you to Me that I THIRST FOR YOU.
( continued)
 
Come to Me, and I will fill your heart and heal your wounds. I will make you a new creation and give you peace even in your trials.
I THIRST FOR YOU.
You must never doubt My mercy, My desire to forgive, My longing to bless you and live My life in you, and that I accept you no matter what you have done.
I THIRST FOR YOU.
If you feel of little value before the eyes of the world, it doesn’t matter. There is no one that interests me in the whole world than you.
I THIRST FOR YOU.
Open up to Me, come to Me, thirst for Me, give me your life. I will prove to you how important you are for My Heart. Don’t you realize that My Father already has a perfect plan to transform your life, beginning from this moment? Trust in Me. Ask Me every day to enter and take charge of your life and I will. I promise you before My Father in Heaven that I will work miracles in your life. Why would I do this?
Because I THIRST FOR YOU.
All I ask of you is that you entrust yourself to Me completely. I will do all the rest. From this moment, now, I behold the place My Father has prepared for you in My Kingdom. Remember that you are a pilgrim in this life travelling back home. Sin can never satisfy you, or bring the peace you seek. All that you have sought outside of Me has only left you more empty, so do not tie yourself to the things of this world; above all, do not run from Me when you fall.
Come to Me without delay because, when you give Me your sins, you give Me the joy of being your Savior. There is nothing I cannot forgive and heal; so come now, and unburden your soul. No matter how far you have strayed without a destination, no matter how often you have forgotten Me, no matter how many crosses you bear in this life; I want you to always remember, one thing that will never change.
I THIRST FOR YOU - just you, as you are.
You don’t need to change to believe in My love, for it will be your confidence in that love that will make you change. You forget Me, and yet I am seeking you every moment of the day – standing before the doors of your heart and calling. Do you find this difficult to believe?
If so, look at the Cross, look at My Heart that was pierced for you. Have you not understood My Cross? Then listen again to the words I spoke there, for they tell you clearly why I endured all this for you:
“…I THIRST” (John 19: 28)

YES, I THIRST FOR YOU.
As the rest of the psalm I was praying says of Me: “… I waited uselessly for compassion, I waited for someone to console me and I did not find it.” (Psalm 69: 20). All your life I have been desiring your love. I’ve never ceased searching for your love and longing to be loved by you in return. You have tried many things in your goal to be happy. Why not try opening up for Me you heart, right now, more than you ever have before?
When you finally open the doors of your heart and you finally come close enough, you will then hear Me say again and again, not in mere human words but in spirit: "No matter what you have done, I love you for your own sake. Come to Me with your misery and your sins, with your problems and needs, and with all your desire to be loved. I stand at the door of your heart and call… Open to Me, for I THIRST FOR YOU… "
"Jesus is God, therefore His Love and His Thirst are infinite. He, the Creator of the universe, asked for the love of his creatures. He has thirst for our love … These words: “I THIRST” … Do they echo in our soul?
 
NoelFitz said:
Sarcelle

Again you stress our destiny depends on our choice/decision. Do you ignore the role of grace/providence, God’s mercy and love?
Click to expand...
I do not ignore the role of grace/providence in our salvation.

I however do not subscribe to irresistible grace which is an element of Calvinism. The I in TULIP. We must make the decision to cooperate with Grace.
 
OK.

Let’s put this to the test.

I repent of my sins. I go to confession and do penance.

OK, time for me to go to heaven. Beam me up please.

crickets

Oh, I’m not there yet. 🤷

Something’s missing. Oh, in order for me to go to heaven, it involves God’s choice as well. If God doesn’t choose, our choice is meaningless.
 
BobCatholic said:
Something’s missing. Oh, in order for me to go to heaven, it involves God’s choice as well. If God doesn’t choose, our choice is meaningless.
Click to expand...
Thats a good point. The bible even says there will be many people who say “but Lord, Lord, I knew you in life”, but will be cast into hell, so this seems to imply God will be doing some choosing, despite what the person wants.
 
Thanks to all who contributed.
I am still confused, but maybe not as much as I was.
I am now going to post another query, perhaps more focused and hence may lead to a clearer Catholic consensus.
 
mikekle said:
Thats a good point. The bible even says there will be many people who say “but Lord, Lord, I knew you in life”, but will be cast into hell, so this seems to imply God will be doing some choosing, despite what the person wants.
Click to expand...
Precisely, it is a one way street in reality - God’s way, or the highway.
 
BobCatholic said:
OK.

Let’s put this to the test.

I repent of my sins. I go to confession and do penance.

OK, time for me to go to heaven. Beam me up please.

crickets

Oh, I’m not there yet. 🤷

Something’s missing. Oh, in order for me to go to heaven, it involves God’s choice as well. If God doesn’t choose, our choice is meaningless.
Click to expand...
Purgatory is the place of purification for the just that still have attachments to creatures. They will experience heaven later.
 
Vico said:
Purgatory is the place of purification for the just that still have attachments to creatures. They will experience heaven later.
Click to expand...
And who makes the decision to enter heaven? Not the soul. Only God does.

God’s way or the highway.
 
Vico said:
Each person: by being in the state of sanctifying grace finally.
Click to expand...
And if God does not provide that grace for whatever reason, game over.

There is no guarantee that grace will be available at the time of our death. A mafia don who’s sinning all their life tries to make a deathbed conversion, and they get shot by a rival gangster before the priest arrives for final confession…

It is God’s choice first and foremost. Not all people are acceptable to God. If they were, we’d be in the Garden of Eden now.

“Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” - so it is not those who choose God, but rather those who God chooses.

I could choose God and he can choose to reject me, and there’s nothing I can do about that.
 
BobCatholic said:
And if God does not provide that grace for whatever reason, game over.

There is no guarantee that grace will be available at the time of our death. A mafia don who’s sinning all their life tries to make a deathbed conversion, and they get shot by a rival gangster before the priest arrives for final confession…

It is God’s choice first and foremost. Not all people are acceptable to God. If they were, we’d be in the Garden of Eden now.

“Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.” - so it is not those who choose God, but rather those who God chooses.

I could choose God and he can choose to reject me, and there’s nothing I can do about that.
Click to expand...
A certain teaching of faith is that “God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)” - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 241, Ludwig Ott.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top