C
cocot
Guest
Where do you think most souls wind up?
For me, I have an ever changing view.
For me, I have an ever changing view.
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thistle
Guest
Only God knows. We could not even speculate.
I
Isidore_AK
Guest
I think this sums it up quite well…
Matthew 7:13-14:
Matthew 7:13-14:
Now, I’m not going to try to “judge” any particular person, but overall I’d say that the population of Hell is going to outnumber the population of Heaven by many orders of magnitude…but maybe I’m just a pessimist…
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batteddy
Guest
Honestly, for my own reasons, I believe it will be exactly half. Each angel will be paired with a human companion, and each demon will torture a human prisoner…but each fallen angel will also be replaced by a human. The only way for the number of humans in heaven to equal BOTH the number of fallen angels, and the number of unfallen angels…is if half of both angels and humans fell. Also, it seems to me…that truly Free will would statistically end up about half and half when it came to our ultimate choice (of course, free will is free…not a statistic…so it could theoretically end up in any unpredictable ratio)…but Christ has two theives next to him, and one went to heaven and the other presumably to hell.
Half seems like a good number.
I think that the world will end when the same number of humans have been born as the total number of angels. And I believe God picked whatever this number is (billions? Trillions?) because it was the number that worked out so that only exactly half of each would fall…which was also probably the bare minimum of people who could fall. God would want the to arrange history so that, leaving free will intact, the minimum number of men and angels would fall…and this number was probably half of each, in my mind (which is in no way binding, just me imaginitively playing with the numbers) and he picked the number that just worked out so that the same number of humans fell as angels. God is surely free to choose how many people are ultimately created.
Half seems like a good number.
I think that the world will end when the same number of humans have been born as the total number of angels. And I believe God picked whatever this number is (billions? Trillions?) because it was the number that worked out so that only exactly half of each would fall…which was also probably the bare minimum of people who could fall. God would want the to arrange history so that, leaving free will intact, the minimum number of men and angels would fall…and this number was probably half of each, in my mind (which is in no way binding, just me imaginitively playing with the numbers) and he picked the number that just worked out so that the same number of humans fell as angels. God is surely free to choose how many people are ultimately created.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
In one of the Blessed Virgin’s apparations, she revealed that the most amount of people go to purgatory. Followed by hell and finally heaven – meaning that very few people go directly to heaven.
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malachi_a_serva
Guest
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultary, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21
“For this you know, that no whormonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” Ephesians 5:5-6
“For without (the right to the tree of life and hence enter through the gates) are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderes, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie”. Rev. 22:15
Matthew 5:22, “But I say to you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
Matthew 8:12 "But the children of the kingdom sjall be cast out into outer darkness:
Matt. 23:15 “…you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves”
Matt. 24:51 "“And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment” - those that did noit do to the least of the brothers.
“If your eye offend you…better to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than having two and …cast into hell fire”
The righteous…the narrow gate…few will find it.
I think the Biblical eveidence is overwhellming. Most will go to Hell. So many that God the Father had to sacrifice his only begotten son…to give fallen man an opportunity for salvation.
J
JMJ_Theresa
Guest
Sir Knight:
That is that the source of my belief.
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masterjedi747
Guest
Of course we can speculate…we just won’t know if we’re right.
Personally? I’m an optimist. I suspect the factions will average out to be very much like the angels were…approximately 2/3 in Heaven, and 1/3 in Hell. Keep on reading to learn why…
Except we know that only about 1/3 of the angels fell…not 1/2 both way.
But then again, 2/3 of the people crucified on the hill that day went to Heaven, and 1/3 (presumably) to Hell…it might be nothing at all (and perhaps the bad thief simply spent tons and tons of time in Purgatory), but I think it’s still interesting to consider nevertheless.
I think the world will end when the world will end…we’ll last as long as we possibly can before we try to destroy ourselves, and then God will step in (at the last possible moment) in all His glory to stop that from happening. But again, maybe that’s just because I’m an optimist…
Sir Knight:
Yep…that sounds pretty good to me.
But there’s still one even bigger reason why I agree:
I think the Biblical evidence simply indicates that most will not go directly to Heaven. I’ve also heard this philosophical idea mentioned before, and I think it’s worth considering: If a majority of the people that God created do go to Hell, then (in a certain sense) you could actually conclude that Chirst somehow failed (to a certain extent) in His mission, and that Satan ended up with the largest victory. For that reason alone, I personally feel confident that a majority of the people that God created will reach Heaven…even if it’s not 2/3, it should still be a majority. But I do think the 2/3 figure is pretty good…it’s optimistic, it gives God the ultimate victory over Satan (by a tremendous margin…literally twice the amount), and it’s realistic…if it happened for the angels, then it might very well happen for us too. I think it’s a cool idea, anyway. :twocents:
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cynic
Guest
surprising really, I would have thought that since the majority of people hwo have lived and died were not catholic, that (traditional) catholics would think that the most of mankind would end up in hell.
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batteddy
Guest
I wouldn’t say we “know”…the passage from revelations about 1/3 of the stars falling from the sky, while almost certainly representing the fallen angels, is not necessarily indicative of any actual numerical value. The number 1/3 is used A LOT in Revelations…perhaps for more numerologically symbolically signifigant reasons than for trying to give us statistics about the population of heaven.
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godsent
Guest
Most souls will go to purgatory…then eventually heaven!
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masterjedi747
Guest
The Church has never taught that only Catholics can get to Heaven. We as Christians have the benefit of Divine Revelation, yes…but all of the people who lived before Christ would have had invincible ingorance under most circumstances. To whom much is given, much will be expected…and fortunately or unfortunately, the people who lived before Christ weren’t given much. And it’s obviously not their fault that they were born before Christ. Besides, if that many people before Christ were really going to Hell because they we’re Christian/Catholic, then God could/would have chosen a different redemption plan to meet their immediate needs. But they weren’t, and He didn’t need to. Everyone is given an equal shot at reaching Heaven, regardless of whether or not they had/have the benefit of Divine Revelation.
Of course it’s not a numerical value…it’s an approximate ratio. But I’m still pretty sure that it falls under the category of ordinary magisterium, which is infallible, since the Church has always interpreted that particular passage of Scripture this way. It’s not really “in question” anymore…the Church has revealed the proper interpretation, therefore we know that it is true.
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tdandh26
Guest
Did not Jesus say enter through the narrow gate, for the road to perdition is wide and many there are who enter, but the road to heaven is narrow and few there are who enter? or something to that affect.
I pray daily for all souls to go to heaven, but that choice is theirs in consequence of free will. If we live a life in which we always seek our own benefit, we would not be happy in heaven for in heaven we are all one. I like to think of our lives as an extended question, the same that was proposed to Lucifer in which he said I will not serve. So will we serve and believe all that Christ taught and revealed and gave us in His Church which He established with its priests and sacrements, which themselves were foreshadowed? Or, will we choose our own desires to never be subordinate to anyone, like Lucifer?
I pray daily for all souls to go to heaven, but that choice is theirs in consequence of free will. If we live a life in which we always seek our own benefit, we would not be happy in heaven for in heaven we are all one. I like to think of our lives as an extended question, the same that was proposed to Lucifer in which he said I will not serve. So will we serve and believe all that Christ taught and revealed and gave us in His Church which He established with its priests and sacrements, which themselves were foreshadowed? Or, will we choose our own desires to never be subordinate to anyone, like Lucifer?
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empacae
Guest
I choose hell. That way if I arrive at anything different (purgs or heaven, but not likely) then I’ll be pleasantly surprised. I chose hell, because I figure that’s where I’m heading, and I’ll work like hell to keep myself from going.
guess that’s the wrong attitude, huh?
emp
guess that’s the wrong attitude, huh?
emp
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thistle
Guest
You got it! That’s the wrong attitude.
ALWAYS choose God.
A
alterserver_07
Guest
There really is no way we can know this answere. We don’t know if they were possesed or last second true repentance or if they were hiding a horrible secreat that they never asked forgiveness for. There really is no way we could know.
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freesoulhope
Guest
I dont really want to vote. Im going to vote, but i will out of hope.
There maybe some lucky ones who dont know any better, that will wake up in pergutory, waiting for eternal bliss.
“Not many desire the path thats difficult and narrow, and very few enter the gate that leads to heaven”
There maybe some lucky ones who dont know any better, that will wake up in pergutory, waiting for eternal bliss.
“Not many desire the path thats difficult and narrow, and very few enter the gate that leads to heaven”
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Balance
Guest
I think the vast majority of souls will go to heaven. Isn’t God capable of showing himself to each soul in such a way, perhaps even at the instant of death, that most will say, “Ah! That’s who it is, that I had an inkling of all my life, that’s what it was that I yearned for - Lord, it’s you!” and fall into his arms?
Think of the people you know - friends, workmates, family, acquantainces. How many of them are truly selfish, through and through - that is, how many of them **really ** seem to want their own desires first and only and all the time? Not many, if any, I’ll bet. The vast majority of people I know are basically good people - a mixture of selfishness and selflessness, of love and apathy, of courage and weakness. Any good they do comes from God, whether they know it or not. Any good they do makes their virtue stronger, or at the least, maintains it at the level it is at. Any good in them will draw them to God, to heaven.
Most of us muddle along through life, yearning for God and encountering him fitfully, but life being what it is, and our fallen human natures being what they are, we are never, or rarely, the people we should be. The thing is, God understands this. He longs for us to be more than what we are, but understands that we are not… and in his love and mercy, Jesus makes one of the many rooms in his Father’s house just for us.
I find it extraordinary that there are so many verses being quoted about hellfire and damnation in this thread. What about 2 Peter 3:9? “The Lord is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” What about how Jesus says that if you do something as small as giving a glass of water to a stranger, you’ll go to heaven?" What about his mercy to the good thief - “Today you’ll be with me in paradise” Not even “Today, after you’ve proved your repentance by doing good works, you’ll be in paradise” but just “today, you’ll be there.” This shows that God knows our hearts - he knows if we’re true, he knows that we are a mixture of good and bad, he knows whether or not we are persisting in sin and selfishness at the very end, he knows!
And knowing his children like that, won’t he “exploit every loophole” to bring them home?
Think of the people you know - friends, workmates, family, acquantainces. How many of them are truly selfish, through and through - that is, how many of them **really ** seem to want their own desires first and only and all the time? Not many, if any, I’ll bet. The vast majority of people I know are basically good people - a mixture of selfishness and selflessness, of love and apathy, of courage and weakness. Any good they do comes from God, whether they know it or not. Any good they do makes their virtue stronger, or at the least, maintains it at the level it is at. Any good in them will draw them to God, to heaven.
Most of us muddle along through life, yearning for God and encountering him fitfully, but life being what it is, and our fallen human natures being what they are, we are never, or rarely, the people we should be. The thing is, God understands this. He longs for us to be more than what we are, but understands that we are not… and in his love and mercy, Jesus makes one of the many rooms in his Father’s house just for us.
I find it extraordinary that there are so many verses being quoted about hellfire and damnation in this thread. What about 2 Peter 3:9? “The Lord is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” What about how Jesus says that if you do something as small as giving a glass of water to a stranger, you’ll go to heaven?" What about his mercy to the good thief - “Today you’ll be with me in paradise” Not even “Today, after you’ve proved your repentance by doing good works, you’ll be in paradise” but just “today, you’ll be there.” This shows that God knows our hearts - he knows if we’re true, he knows that we are a mixture of good and bad, he knows whether or not we are persisting in sin and selfishness at the very end, he knows!
And knowing his children like that, won’t he “exploit every loophole” to bring them home?
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freesoulhope
Guest
I respect your love, forgive me for saying so but, it is only those who repent in thier heart. The thief did not know God until he was crucified next to him, his heart was Good, because his heart wanted Good and was sorry.
If any soul should die before they know God and his church, then i believe their fate will depend on the quality of thier hearts, what they wanted, what there dreams were. If God finds the love of evil in you, then no ignorance will save you, the love of sin and the love of God will be tested on jugdement day. ( at least this is what i believe) If by just saying an empty sorry because we dont want to go to hell will save us, then everybody is going to heaven!
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Balance
Guest
More thoughts:
None of us are worthy of heaven. Again, I find it extraordinary that people can sit here and say “Most people will end up in hell” but not say too “and possibly me with them.” or “1/3 of people will go to hell” but not wonder “maybe I won’t make it to the 2/3.” What is it that makes us **so sure ** of our own salvation and so sure that others we see around us don’t merit that same salvation?
None of us are worthy for heaven. We’re all conscious of our sin - at least, we think we are conscious of it - but we’re not fully aware of the real extent of it. If we were, we wouldn’t be so sure that we’re in the company of the happy few on the narrow road.
None of us are worthy of heaven - on our own anyway. We are only worthy through Christ’s mercy. Again, we’ve all, presumably, experienced God’s forgiveness in our lives. And this is what makes us so sure that he’ll be merciful when we die. How then can we doubt that he won’t extend that same forgiveness to every human - even those **we consider ** to be “the worst sinners”? (And note that “we consider” - who are we to look at another’s sin and judge it worse than our own?)
Have we not read the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Or, having read it, have we not understood it?
Matthew 7:13ff - don’t be too quick to read this literally. (A literal reading, after all, suggests that there is an actual narrow road and narrow gate that we have to look for - where would that be?) It’s a metaphor, and as such needs careful interpretation. It needs to be put alongside all other scripture, and all other Church teaching on salvation and redemption. It’s interesting that the Catechism calls this verse not a literal description of the path to salvation, or method of salvation, or suggestion of the numbers that will go to heaven or hell, but a “call to conversion.” (CCC 1036). Not a call to find the narrow road and stay on it and you’ll be OK, but a continual call to conversion, to walking with Christ.
None of us are worthy of heaven. Again, I find it extraordinary that people can sit here and say “Most people will end up in hell” but not say too “and possibly me with them.” or “1/3 of people will go to hell” but not wonder “maybe I won’t make it to the 2/3.” What is it that makes us **so sure ** of our own salvation and so sure that others we see around us don’t merit that same salvation?
None of us are worthy for heaven. We’re all conscious of our sin - at least, we think we are conscious of it - but we’re not fully aware of the real extent of it. If we were, we wouldn’t be so sure that we’re in the company of the happy few on the narrow road.
None of us are worthy of heaven - on our own anyway. We are only worthy through Christ’s mercy. Again, we’ve all, presumably, experienced God’s forgiveness in our lives. And this is what makes us so sure that he’ll be merciful when we die. How then can we doubt that he won’t extend that same forgiveness to every human - even those **we consider ** to be “the worst sinners”? (And note that “we consider” - who are we to look at another’s sin and judge it worse than our own?)
Have we not read the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Or, having read it, have we not understood it?
Matthew 7:13ff - don’t be too quick to read this literally. (A literal reading, after all, suggests that there is an actual narrow road and narrow gate that we have to look for - where would that be?) It’s a metaphor, and as such needs careful interpretation. It needs to be put alongside all other scripture, and all other Church teaching on salvation and redemption. It’s interesting that the Catechism calls this verse not a literal description of the path to salvation, or method of salvation, or suggestion of the numbers that will go to heaven or hell, but a “call to conversion.” (CCC 1036). Not a call to find the narrow road and stay on it and you’ll be OK, but a continual call to conversion, to walking with Christ.
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