G
Genesis315
Guest
The other day I remembered another precedent for the extraordinary cleansing of unbaptized infants from original sin–the Holy Innocents, who feast day we celebrate on the liturgical calendar.
- Status
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
Your theological position on this issue is self-contradictory and extremely confused.
- the word limbo means fringe
- the Magisterium has repeatedly clearly taught that those who die in original sin only go to a place in Hell, which some call limbo, where they are punished forever, but will lesser punishments than those who die having lost the state of grace in their souls by actual mortal sin. (see citations above)
- This is fringe of hell is not a place of perfect natural happiness. This latter idea is a different use of the word limbo, one condemned by Pius VI.
- It is contradictory in the extreme to claim that those who die in original sin have perfect natural happiness and salvation and also that they are in the limbo described by Pope Pius VI (which he refers to as ‘the punishment of the condemned’ and ‘eternal damnation’). It is absurd to say that those who die in original sin only are both punished forever by being deprived of the Beatific Vision, yet have salvation (apart from God, no less!) and are not in Hell (yet they are punished forever) and will be happy forever (even though they are punished forever and are not in Heaven).
- Pius VI clear spoke against those who ‘introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk’. This middle place is limbo as a third final destination, such as you support.
S
Steve_O_Brien
Guest
We must not misinterpret Pope Pius VI’s condemnation of the Jansenist attack on limbo, and thus confuse our fellow Catholics. Here’s what Pius VI actually says in the 1794 constitution Auctorem fidei (in Deferrari’s translation of old Denzinger number 1526):
"The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithfully generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,–false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools."
Granted, the wording of the above citation is a bit confusing for the contemporary reader, but a careful analysis of the text will indicate what the Pope actually means.
Pius VI is saying that a particular doctrine is “false.” Which doctrine is false? Answer: the Jansenist doctrine that rejects limbo as a heretical fantasy (“a Pelagian fable”). In other words, limbo is not heretical, and it is false to say that it is. Consequently, a Catholic may believe in limbo–as St. Thomas Aquinas and other theologians do.
But what is limbo? Pius VI also says that it is not a state “free of guilt and of punishment,” which is the false claim that the Jansenists allege against those who defend limbo. Limbo is, however, a state in which the punishment is “exclusive of the punishment of fire.” As St. Thomas explains, the punishment of limbo is instead a state of being deprived of the beatific vision, and this is indeed a punishment, a punishment for unremitted original sin.
Since those in limbo still have the guilt of original sin on their souls, there is guilt, too, in limbo. For this reason–the Pope is telling us–it is false to say that the real limbo is the same as “that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk.” The “middle place” of the ancient Pelagian heretics is a state in which there is neither punishment nor guilt, but this is not what limbo means for Pius VI, St. Thomas, and other Catholics.
What limbo means for Catholics is a state in which the guilt and punishment of original sin can, and do, coexist with natural (not supernatural) happiness. There is no contradiction. Right now, human beings in this life do not enjoy the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision, and yet they are happy in a natural manner. The fact that we are not in heaven does not mean that we cannot enjoy pizza and ice cream! Of course, as St. Thomas teaches, the natural happiness of limbo is far superior to that of pizza and ice cream. This natural happiness–which I believe can be considered a kind of salvation (salvation from the fire of hell)–results from being united with God through natural knowledge and love. Please consider the words of St. Thomas:
“Although unbaptized children are separated from God as regards the union of glory, they are not utterly separated from Him: in fact they are united to Him by their share of natural goods, and so will also be able to rejoice in Him by their natural knowledge and love” (Summa theologiae, appendix 1, quest. 1, art. 2, reply to obj. 5).
Keep and spread the Faith.
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
You have misunderstood what the Pope said, and badly so. The result is that you are maintaining a position which directly contradicts what he said. It is so absurd for me to have to even point out that you are reading a statement that clearly says ‘A’ and yet you are claiming that it says ‘not A’.
To clarify my understanding of Limbo:
To clarify my understanding of Limbo:
- Limbo as a fringe of Hell is a teaching of the ordinary Magisterium of the Church. This is the place where those who die in original sin only go, not to a place of natural happiness, but to a place of eternal but limited punishment.
- Limbo as a third final destination is the concept which has not been taught by the Church, and which is the middle place which Pius VI clearly and plainly speaks against.
- the Limbo of the Fathers is also a teaching of the ordinary Magisterium of the Church. This is like an upper level or fringe of Purgatory and is not a final destination.
- Limbo as a fringe of Heaven, but without the Beatific vision; this idea is heretical.
S
Steve_O_Brien
Guest
No, I have not misunderstood Pope Pius VI’s teaching on limbo–as can be verified by anyone who takes the time to read carefully my post #43 on this thread.
It would be astounding if Pope Pius VI’s words were to be twisted into a condemnation of St. Thomas Aquinas’s concept of limbo as a state in which unbaptized infants are eternally united with God through natural knowledge and love (while at the same time being punished for the guilt of original sin by being deprived of the beatific vision).
St. Thomas clearly taught the existence of a limbo in which there is unending, unmerited natural happiness. Please see his teaching in the Summa theologiae:
newadvent.org/summa/6001.htm
newadvent.org/summa/6001.htm#2
I also recommend that everyone interested in limbo take the time to read Patrick J. Toner’s article on it in The Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Is anyone seriously going to maintain that St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor, the Common Doctor, fell into heresy on the subjects of original sin and limbo, and that Pope Pius VI was implicitly condemning St. Thomas for this heresy?
Huh?
Keep and spread the Faith.
N
namguy69
Guest
Pope - The Bishop of Rome and the head of The Roman Catholic Church… American Heritage Dictionary. There’s nothing in the Bible that makes reference to such a position. Now I know the Catholic Church looks upon St. Peter as the first Pope. If that’s what the Catholic Church belives then fine with me…I don’t believe in the in that doctrine, when I was in the Catholic Church I didn’t believe it.
In other words your saying Limbo is the highest point one’s soul can ( hope ) obtaine, or your telling me Limbo is Heaven?
C
CALDE
Guest
Maybe in my hast or maybe it was just my subconcious ommitting Hell, but your right; there will be Heaven and Hell. God wants it this way so that, everyone will see His justice and know that His Word is fullfilled.
C
CALDE
Guest
[/quote]
[/quote]
to make the changes necesary for its implementation. I’m not saying that the Church as a whole is not trying, but that there are clergy and lay people who just don’t get it.
This is in regards to the Social Doctrines as well as the New Evangelism and the new methods of, to the womens role in the church, and even as far as the ordination of Deacons.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
C
CALDE
Guest
Jasny,
Please see post # 48. I’m still learning how to work the whole posting thing.
Thanks.
Please see post # 48. I’m still learning how to work the whole posting thing.
Thanks.
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
There are two final destinations: Heaven and Hell
There is also Purgatory, which is temporary; all who go to Purgatory eventually go to Heaven.
There is no third final resting place.
The limbo of Purgatory, called the limbo of the Fathers, is where those who died before Christ saved us waited for their salvation.
The limbo of Hell is where those adults go who die without having found sanctifying grace in their lives, but without mortal sins of commission on their souls.
Ron
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Florence, Session 6, July 6th, 1439).No, I have not misunderstood Pope Pius VI’s teaching on limbo–as can be verified by anyone who takes the time to read carefully my post #43 on this thread.
It would be astounding if Pope Pius VI’s words were to be twisted into a condemnation of St. Thomas Aquinas’s concept of limbo as a state in which unbaptized infants are eternally united with God through natural knowledge and love (while at the same time being punished for the guilt of original sin by being deprived of the beatific vision).
St. Thomas clearly taught the existence of a limbo in which there is unending, unmerited natural happiness. Please see his teaching in the Summa theologiae:
newadvent.org/summa/6001.htm
newadvent.org/summa/6001.htm#2
I also recommend that everyone interested in limbo take the time to read Patrick J. Toner’s article on it in The Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
Is anyone seriously going to maintain that St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor, the Common Doctor, fell into heresy on the subjects of original sin and limbo, and that Pope Pius VI was implicitly condemning St. Thomas for this heresy?
Huh?
Keep and spread the Faith.
Your claim that those who die in original sin only go to a third final resting place of perfect natural happiness is contradicted by the Council of Florence.
As to your claim that St. Thomas believed in limbo, the portion of the Summa that you cite was not written by him.
Elsewhere, in his commentary on Matthew 25, St. Thomas concludes that there are only two final resting places, Heaven and Hell.
{25:46} And these shall go into eternal punishment, but the just shall go into eternal life.
Ron
J
Jasny
Guest
No, the correct translation is:
Council of Florence, 1438-1445:
“the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds” (Denzinger 694) Not unequal pains
J
Jasny
Guest
Sorry
but you have twisted the words of this pope to mean what you propose is shocking.
You seem to refuse to accept basic grammar.
This condemnation was practically the death-knell of extreme Augustinianism and the triumph of St. Thomas and the Church Fathers teaching. By your theory all the catechisms all over the world since this “condemnation” that taught that Limbo as a place of natural happiness were heretical plus all the Popes from 1794 to Pius XII.
This in incredible.
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
J
Jasny
Guest
**Proof ???
**
J
Jasny
Guest
They were martyrs for Jesus Himself. They died in his place therefore are martyrs .
Even so Jewish boys are circumcised at 8 days and received sanctifying grace. More than likely God in his providence would have allowed no births 8 or 9 days before Herod’s slaughter.
“We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circumcision”
Summa newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm
N
namguy69
Guest
Amen to that…
N
namguy69
Guest
We have our whole life to either accept the Word of the Lord or not. It’s a choice, we’re given choices. I personally don’t believe in Limbo ( purgatory ). I believe in Heaven & hell, it’s as far as I take it.
T
thistle
Guest
Limbo (which I don’t believe in) is different from Purgatory (which I do believe in),
S
Steve_O_Brien
Guest
Concerning the two Summa theologiae articles on limbo, the translation published by the English Dominicans says the following:
"The following two questions were compiled by Nicolai from St. Thomas’s commentary on the Sentences, and by him included in the supplement between Questions 70 and 71" (vol. 5, p. 3002).
Still, the issue of the authenticity of the limbo articles can be circumvented, for St. Thomas teaches a limbo of union with God through natural knowledge and happiness in his De malo, (quest. 5, articles 2-3). Please consider this citation from art. 3:
"Children dying with original sin are separated from God forever so far as concerns the loss of glory which they have no knowledge of, not however so far as concerns their participation in natural goods which they do have knowledge of" (translation by Jean Oesterle).
The above translation of the pronouncement of the Council of Florence contains an error in Latin. The Latin word poena means “punishment,” not “pain.” “Pain” would be dolor.
Mt 25 is not pertinent to limbo, for the context involves only those who perform, or refuse to perform, the works of charity, i.e., those who have reached the age of reason. Infants by their very nature cannot perform the works of charity.
Keep and spread the Faith.
C
CALDE
Guest
Limbo and Purgatory are NOT the same thing.
Limbo or “shoel” is where all those who died without mortal sin before Jesus’ comming, waited for the day that Jesus would triumph over death and rise from the dead. It is where Jesus “decended” after His death.
Jesus Himself said, that “The prophets WERE over joyed to see His comming”. They were in “Shoel”.
Limbo, as we think of it today, is where unbaptized babies and adults go, awaiting God’s divine mercy in the second comming.
Purgatory, on the other hand, is the “place” where all without mortal sin go to purify themselves of sin, and as St. Paul says, eventually go to heaven. St. Paul refers to it, “…as escaping through the flames”.
(1 Cor 3, 10-15).
Take a look at (Mt 12, 32) Jesus says,"…but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,either in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME". (New International)
This implies that there is a “place” where sins can be forgiven after death.
- Status