Heaven. Or not.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lost_Sheep
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lost_Sheep

Guest
My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?
 
Lost_Sheep said:
My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?
Click to expand...
My thoughts: It is not up to us to judge where they are, it is up to God.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?
Click to expand...
You know, I was just thinking this today. Whenever someone dies, most people will automatically say that the person is now in heaven with God. I always find this an odd statement as surely many will end up in purgatory?🤷 I guess its just a comforting thought for those left behind here. And who knows, maybe they did go straight to heaven?

Yes, as Catholics, we are taught that if we die with a mortal sin on our souls we go to hell. But perhaps there was a sincere act of contrition at the very last minute that saved them. 🙂
 
Whether they are in Heaven or not, I don’t think it’s right to tell someone whose entire family is dead that they might be in Hell. I think the charitable thing is to allow her the comfort of believing that she will see them again in Heaven. Maybe that’s the only thing that gets her through the day.
 
JESUS taught us through St. Faustina that with THE DIVINE MERCY prayer, even the blackest soul can be saved. Additionally, the GREGORIAN MASS has been proven to release souls from Purgatory. Investigate having the Gregorian Mass said for them, but do not trouble your aunt, or let it get back to her that you have your doubts, for this is where the admonition “judge not lest ye be judged” unfolds, in the final judgement of CHRIST.
 
I believe that God being outside of time and knows the future, can apply future prayers, Masses and suffrages prayed for these souls by their loved ones, to help assist them in their final hours. 👍
 
BlueSapphire said:
I believe that God being outside of time and knows the future, can apply future prayers, Masses and suffrages prayed for these souls by their loved ones, to help assist them in their final hours. 👍
Click to expand...
I love this. Is it in line with Catholic teaching?
 
God’s infinite divine mercy may very well be a last moment of tremendous grace at the time of death to aid in final repentance and faith. I think I heard Fr Corapi say once that God would allow someone committing suicide to repent in the moment between pulling the trigger and before the bullet entered his head. Have faith and hope in God’s mercy. All we can do is pray for them, never assume anyone is damned and only assumed the canonized are already in heaven.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?
Click to expand...
We can never be sure who is in hell or purgatory. We certainly cannot judge others, as that is God’s job and God’s job alone. However, your aunt is doing a GREAT INJUSTICE to your uncle and cousin by assuming they are in heaven. She should be praying for their souls and that way, if they are in purgatory, her prayers would help them get to heaven. If she is assuming they are already in heaven, I presume she is not praying for them. Always pray for a soul, no matter where you assume them to be.

Incidentally, it is not too late to pray that your uncle and cousin died with the grace of final repentence.
 
As already pointed out, we are not to judge the final destiny of a soul. The Church has the authority to canonize saints, but even they do not make pronouncements about who is damned. For the last year or so I have been an altar server at funerals and have attended about twenty of them. Prior to this I had been told that pre-Vat II funerals were rather dismal affairs where everyone wore black, the priest wore black, the casket was covered in black, and the message was basically “we beg you Lord for mercy upon your unworthy servant. We pray that your sacrifice will save your servant from his sins, and that through your blood he may escape the just judgment of God”. If this is the way things used to be I can safely say that things have changed dramatically. First of all, the idea that our fate is tenuous or at least unknown has disappeared. Everyone goes to heaven, and while I am sure this is being proclaimed for reasons of charity it still violates the doctrine that we are not to judge final destinies. Another significant innovation is the eulogy. I only recently discovered that this was never a Catholic practice but is something that we have imported from Protestant tradition. As one might expect the eulogy generally hammers home the idea that the deceased is in heaven. I asked my pastor if I could write my own eulogy that was nothing but a list of all the awful things I have done. He said he would never allow that, which is too bad because I like to play around with expectations.

Does it matter how a funeral is conducted? I think it does. My wife teaches architecture at the local university. She is a very sincere yet demanding instructor. Each semester I get to hear from her how badly her students are doing, how little work they put in, and how it is her fault because she is an incompetent teacher. At the end of the semester her class almost always winds up getting the best grades in her department. I finally realized that she gets results because she convinces her students that they are going to fail if they do not get off their butts. Perhaps the Church should return to this kind of teaching.
 
Thank you everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Perhaps a point of clarification is in order. It was not my intent to “pass judgment” but rather to speculate on how God might have judged. I am not second-guessing God and I have no choice but to be OK with His decision.

But the Church makes it clear that anyone who dies in the state of Mortal Sin has a one-way ticket to the Hot Place. And barring any last-minute conversions or reconciliations that we would have no way of knowing about, it is what it it is.

I would certainly never suggest to my aunt anything that could upset her and we have never discussed the matter. My point merely was that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking no can we presume that God would make a decision the same way we would.
 
Moontown_Rabbit said:
As already pointed out, we are not to judge the final destiny of a soul. The Church has the authority to canonize saints, but even they do not make pronouncements about who is damned. For the last year or so I have been an altar server at funerals and have attended about twenty of them. Prior to this I had been told that pre-Vat II funerals were rather dismal affairs where everyone wore black, the priest wore black, the casket was covered in black, and the message was basically “we beg you Lord for mercy upon your unworthy servant. We pray that your sacrifice will save your servant from his sins, and that through your blood he may escape the just judgment of God”. If this is the way things used to be I can safely say that things have changed dramatically. First of all, the idea that our fate is tenuous or at least unknown has disappeared. Everyone goes to heaven, and while I am sure this is being proclaimed for reasons of charity it still violates the doctrine that we are not to judge final destinies. Another significant innovation is the eulogy. I only recently discovered that this was never a Catholic practice but is something that we have imported from Protestant tradition. As one might expect the eulogy generally hammers home the idea that the deceased is in heaven. I asked my pastor if I could write my own eulogy that was nothing but a list of all the awful things I have done. He said he would never allow that, which is too bad because I like to play around with expectations.

Does it matter how a funeral is conducted? I think it does. My wife teaches architecture at the local university. She is a very sincere yet demanding instructor. Each semester I get to hear from her how badly her students are doing, how little work they put in, and how it is her fault because she is an incompetent teacher. At the end of the semester her class almost always winds up getting the best grades in her department. I finally realized that she gets results because she convinces her students that they are going to fail if they do not get off their butts. Perhaps the Church should return to this kind of teaching.
Click to expand...
Firstly, I find the whole concept of an intolerable eternal punishment of endless torture in hell, regardless of how much it is “deserved,” to be absolutely outrageous.

The Pre-Vatican II funeral you mention makes a lot of sense, if the Church really believes its own teaching about hell. Hell is a stark reality, and we don’t know how many people may or may not go there. In this case, funerals and death, should remind us of the finality of our decisions in our earthly lives, and serve as a warning to the fiery doom that awaits us if we die with a single mortal sin on our soul.

For me, the fact that the Church doesn’t preach hell, leads me to believe that maybe hell doesn’t exist. funerals are where it really counts, because for the deceased there decision is final, and we no longer pray for their “conversion.” If a dead person is in hell, it becomes useless to pray for them or anything, this is just ridiculous to me.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?
Click to expand...
We are only human and we naturally want to believe that family and friends who have died have been saved. We do not know if they are saved or not. Only God knows.

The state of a person’s soul at death determines if they are saved or not. If someone dies in a state of grace then they are saved (Heaven directly or more likely Purgatory first). If they die in a state of mortal sin then they go to Hell.
However, only God knows the state of anyone’s soul at death. We don’t know if a sinner asks for God mercy with their dying breath.

Remember that living a generally holy life and doing lots of good deeds has no merit if the person dies in a state of mortal sin.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
But the Church makes it clear that anyone who dies in the state of Mortal Sin has a one-way ticket to the Hot Place. And barring any last-minute conversions or reconciliations that we would have no way of knowing about, it is what it it is…
Click to expand...
Yes, but we have absolutely no way of knowing whether someone is in mortal sin. We may be certain that someone has done something that is grave matter-- the stuff of mortal sin, but we** cannot** know if the other two conditions of mortal sin were met. That is to say, we are incapable of judging another person’s knowledge and consent to the gravely disordered act. Pretty much everything you have proposed for consideration is squarely in the domain of “what if” and completely beyond our ability to know.

AMDG
jsa
 
thistle said:
We are only human and we naturally want to believe that family and friends who have died have been saved. We do not know if they are saved or not. Only God knows.
. If they die in a state of mortal sin then they go to Hell.
Click to expand...
Would people on this thread care to substitute the words ‘hating God’ for ‘mortal sin’ wherever it appears, and see if the meaning is rather more real?
 
Our Lord to St. Faustina …

"Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. "

The Lord wants no soul to go to Hell! Down to the last fews seconds on earth, Our Saviour still imparts his Mercy to a dying person. He would surely give them that one last chance in their dying moments to accept His Mercy and Love, even though they may have lived a life of sin!

Jesus I Trust In You!!
 
pinctor said:
Would people on this thread care to substitute the words ‘hating God’ for ‘mortal sin’ wherever it appears, and see if the meaning is rather more real?
Click to expand...
One problem is that people who commit a mortal sin don’t seem to realise by definition committing a mortal sin means rejecting God’s love.
 
thistle said:
One problem is that people who commit a mortal sin don’t seem to realise by definition committing a mortal sin means rejecting God’s love.
Click to expand...
That’s why I suggested the substitution.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top