Heaven. Or not.

[TedDC]

Would people on this thread care to substitute the words ‘hating God’ for ‘mortal sin’ wherever it appears, and see if the meaning is rather more real?

Just because the Catholic Church declares something to be a “mortal sin” doesn’t mean that the person who does it hates God.

 

[thistle]

Just because the Catholic Church declares something to be a “mortal sin” doesn’t mean that the person who does it hates God.

Committing a mortal sin means a person is deliberately rejecting God’s love.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Just because the Catholic Church declares something to be a “mortal sin” doesn’t mean that the person who does it hates God.

Agreed. But from the Church’s standpoint I think it is implied.

If you are a teenager and your mother doesn’t want you to smoke but you do anyways, that does not mean you hate your mother or are “rejecting” her love. You may be rejecting her concern about your smoking, but you are not rejecting her in her entirety.

Sometimes I think the Church confuses telling people what to think with how to think.

 

[Alindawyl]

Agreed. But from the Church’s standpoint I think it is implied.

If you are a teenager and your mother doesn’t want you to smoke but you do anyways, that does not mean you hate your mother or are “rejecting” her love. You may be rejecting her concern about your smoking, but you are not rejecting her in her entirety.

Sometimes I think the Church confuses telling people what to think with how to think.

The Church isn’t confused. The confusion is with the misunderstanding many people have on what exactly constitutes a mortal sin. We tend to know that a mortal sin must be a sin of grave matter, such as what’s listed in the Ten Commandments. Disobeying a just rule of your parents is certainly a sin of grave matter because it violates the fourth Commandment. However, there are two additional requirements beyond grave matter for a sin to be mortal. The sin must be known to be grave matter by the sinner, and the sinner must deliberately intend to do it despite knowing it’s wrong.

Every person in hell has:

1. Committed a sin of grave matter,
2. Knowing in advance that it was wrong,
3. Choosing without coercion to do it anyway,
4. Without ever repenting for it before they died.

In other words, everyone in hell CHOSE to be there by a free act of the will. Even if hell is a horrible torment, they view being in the presence of God as an even more horrible torment.

So always pray for the souls of the departed because we simply do not know the state of anyone’s soul at the time they die. Hope for the best, but never presume and always leave the judging of souls up to God. He is infinitely just and infinitely merciful, incapable of making a mistake, so makes a much better judge than any of us.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

1. Knowing in advance that it was wrong,

Does the Church have the last word on this? Does it not depend on the individual and his/her conscience.

Using your line of thinking; if Hitler deeply, conscientiously and seriously believed he was doing the world a favor by attempting to eradicate the Jewish Race and therefore was not aware that what he was doing was “wrong”, then he should be in Heaven.

 

[davidv]

Does the Church have the last word on this? Does it not depend on the individual and his/her conscience.

Using your line of thinking; if Hitler deeply, conscientiously and seriously believed he was doing the world a favor by attempting to eradicate the Jewish Race and therefore was not aware that what he was doing was “wrong”, then he should be in Heaven.

Yes the Church has the last word on the teaching. However, the individual has the last word (its called free will) as to whether they will obey God or not, and suffer the consequences.

 

[Alindawyl]

Does the Church have the last word on this? Does it not depend on the individual and his/her conscience.

Using your line of thinking; if Hitler deeply, conscientiously and seriously believed he was doing the world a favor by attempting to eradicate the Jewish Race and therefore was not aware that what he was doing was “wrong”, then he should be in Heaven.

Hitler attended Catholic school as a child. Good luck arguing that no one ever taught him that murder is evil. Hitler was taught the truth but rejected it at some point.

However, the mercy of God is infinite. No sinner will be kept out of heaven and away from the presence of God, no matter how great their sin, provided they repent and turn back to God before dying. He forgave King David, who was guilty of adultery and murder yet repented of his sins. He forgave St. Paul, one of the biggest persecutors of the early Church before his conversion. St. Paul was the man directly responsible for the death of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr. St. Paul also repented of his sins.

God can forgive even as terrible a sinner as Hitler, provided of course that Hitler chose to repent before dying.

 

[thistle]

Does the Church have the last word on this? Does it not depend on the individual and his/her conscience.

Using your line of thinking; if Hitler deeply, conscientiously and seriously believed he was doing the world a favor by attempting to eradicate the Jewish Race and therefore was not aware that what he was doing was “wrong”, then he should be in Heaven.

You Hilter example is nonsense and irrelevant. He is not the Church.

If the Church teaches something is a grave sin then it is a grave sin. A person may not understand the teaching and it is up to them to gain an understanding but they cannot say it is wrong and reject it. That is heresy.

Our conscience has to be formed in accordance with Church teaching.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Remember, friends, that the Blessed Lord used Moses as a mouthpiece to the Jewish people, even though Moses himself admitted having “uncircumcised lips”. This speech defect (or natural diffidence?) made him an unlikely candidate to lead the Chosen in word and deed. Despite that, God gave him certain powers to overcome his human imperfection. This can probably applied to lost souls. Our Saviour is merciful and kind, even to the unrepentant (to a certain degree, of course). Never imagine that God is 100% lovingly merciful or 100% cruelly just. After all, He did create the very conception of Mercy and the very ideal of Justice, and perfectly consummates those in His own being.

Tell your aunt that these poor souls are exactly where God wants them to be. Say it in a calm, loving tone so she thinks you are referring to Heaven. You can imply something by tone and not say it directly by word, while maintaining peace and honesty.

 

[catharina]

My uncle passed away last week, and was buried Friday leaving my aunt and Godmother a widow. Their only son died very unexpectedly in 2002 so my aunt is now alone.

My aunt is one of the most devoted Catholics I have ever met in my life, however her son and my uncle were marginal Catholics at best. My aunt believes, that despite being marginal Catholics, that both her husband and son are now with God.

I know she believes this and wants to believe it because it gives her comfort. But following a strict interpretation of God’s law, I would say that, well, they are not in Heaven; having both died in the state of sin; possibly mortal sin.

She says “Oh I don’t think God would send them to Hell because they were still good men”. I say that we cannot presume to know what God is thinking. When she says “I don’t think God would punish them for [something they may have done in their lives]” what she is really saying is that if she were God, she would not punish them.

Is God’s law airtight? If my cousin masturbated when he was 13 years old, and never went to confession about it, was it still a Black Mark on his record when he died at 34? Last I heard, there were no statutes of limitations on Mortal Sin.

You thoughts?

My thoughts? Your aunt has a far more accurate idea about the state of goodness in each of these men than you could ever have. Did they go to hell? I have no idea. You have no idea. Your aunt who knew them best can see goodness in them. Perhaps she is reflecting God’s judgment, since God knows the griefs and hurts and damages suffered by any soul - including your uncle and cousin. God’s law is binding and God’s mercy is everlasting. Far better that we “judge” with mercy than with condemnation - since we are told not to judge at all.

 

[kbwall]

It’s up to God, and you really shouldn’t worry about it. I mean, if they’re in Heaven, awesome. If they’re in Hell, nothing you or anybody else can do about it. Either way, it doesn’t affect you, and isn’t your concern.

Also, trying to convince people that their deceased loved ones are in Hell just seems kinda rude.