Heaven outside time?

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Trevor_Stamm

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Hello all,

If there is a papal decree made from ex-cathedra that heaven is in fact outside of heaven, show me the link and forget this argument (a good Catholic assents to all dogma 👍 ). But if it isn’t I need to hear the argument that it is.

My belief that it isn’t outside of time is based on:

1: Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” God created the heavens, how does one draw the conclusion that it is outside of time if it had a beginning of time? Heaven was caused into existence, therefore it is not infinite (line) but a ray that it has a beginning but no end.

2: If it is outside of time, this dimension (heaven) has no time and is infinite. Whatever is the future is present, and whatever the past is present. Everything exists already. How do we enter into heaven from a dimension that has time into a dimension that has no time? By this line of reasoning, everyone that would already be saved and assumed into heaven are already there. But that’s no the case since we still occupy this time space and are awaiting judgment. So unless we are practicing dualism, that the soul is using a body as a simple avatar, and the soul is already in heaven
 I don’t see, by this approach, that heaven can be outside of time.

pax
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
1: Gen 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” God created the heavens, how does one draw the conclusion that it is outside of time if it had a beginning of time? Heaven was caused into existence, therefore it is not infinite (line) but a ray that it has a beginning but no end.
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I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the biggest expert on Heaven, but what I will say is that when studying the Bible, it’s also important not to give too much analysis to one word of a verse.

The dilemma you pointed out can also be found in the Bible elsewhere. For example, the Book of John starts with: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Clearly, the use of the word “beginning” would indicate that God had a beginning, and so is not everlasting and is bound by time and space. We know that is not true.

So, in the same manner, Heaven does not have to be bound by time simply because God created it.

It’ll be interesting to see how this discussion goes, but I’ve always thought that Heaven was outside of time. The problem you’ve highlighted is what some philosophers call the problem of religious language.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the biggest expert on Heaven, but what I will say is that when studying the Bible, it’s also important not to give too much analysis to one word of a verse.

The dilemma you pointed out can also be found in the Bible elsewhere. For example, the Book of John starts with: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Clearly, the use of the word “beginning” would indicate that God had a beginning, and so is not everlasting and is bound by time and space. We know that is not true.
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But we must employ the entire context of John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

We see in the 3rd verse that without him, nothing could be made since God is the uncaused mover. “in the beginning” and “He was in the beginning with God” put into context, this is simply Gen 1, the first cause or the act of creation. This does not indicate that the Word was created since the Word is God, but only an observation of the beginning of our finite existence.

Also we observe heaven was created, has a beginning, in the Apostles’ Creed: “I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.” And the Nicene Creed: “We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.”
So, in the same manner, Heaven does not have to be bound by time simply because God created it.
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It’ll be interesting to see how this discussion goes, but I’ve always thought that Heaven was outside of time. The problem you’ve highlighted is what some philosophers call the problem of religious language.
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Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
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True; God’s will, is. There could be an indefinable mystery if heaven exists outside of time. But since we are finite beings with laws of nature to abide by, by our understanding this theme seems impossible. Let’s take an example, if heaven is outside of time, Blessed Mary has always been there. How, why? If a dimensional space has no time then everything that has been, is, and will be are already existing. But our Holy Queen was created by God in this time space and assumed into Heaven. If Blessed Mary was assumed into a dimensional space that has no time, she would have already existed before her creation in our time space. Let’s use an illustration.

<___________________________________________________________________________________>

0------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

The first line is just that, a line. In geometry a line: is straight (no curves), has extends in both directions without end (infinitely). Now think of the 2nd line as a ray, defined as: a portion of a line which starts at a point and goes off in a particular direction to infinity.

Now equate the line as heaven and the ray as earth (or the universe, finite existence). If one of us breaks away from the ray and become part of the line, those in the ray that observe the line, have always been.

I do not know where to find this quote verbatim, taking it off a comment in yahoo answers but if it is true, C.S. Lewis came across this issue: “that people in heaven may not be waiting for their loved ones to join them, in that we may already be there.” I’m just wondering, how is this not heretical?

In relations to Rev 21:1, I don’t see how it applies here? Haydock Commentary: New, by their form and qualities, but not by their substance. — The first heaven and first earth was passed away: being changed, not as to their substance, but in their qualities.
 
TrevorStamm: Heaven is outside of time.Christ said this gospel will be preached till the end of time.Time has to end.What’s left,eternity.
 
valentino said:
TrevorStamm: Heaven is outside of time.Christ said this gospel will be preached till the end of time.Time has to end.What’s left,eternity.
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Hello val 🙂

Thank you for validating my argument. You affirm that heaven has a beginning, not only is it doctrine and literal Scared Scripture but logical. I do too. You affirm from this beginning there is no end, an infinite singular direction or eternity from point a (point a: the first cause) which what I was pointing out in relations to a ray. I do too, but this does not imply that heaven is timeless. Timelessness is infinity in both directions, there is no beginning and there is no end. Only God is timeless, since he is the uncaused. But we all have a beginning, a point a. Heaven cannot be timeless, outside of time, for a finite being or a created being that has an origin cannot exist infinitely in both directions of time, but only infinitely in one direction of time which is forward. Therefore heaven has a forward motion, thus a progression of time and affirms that time exists in heaven infinitely in one direction.
 
Time is a “side effect” of our material world and it’s entropy-driven physics, which powers every process in it, including our human bodies and minds. All of our physical or psycho-spiritual functioning is limited by it.

But, as such, it runs to an end, because all entropic processes run down in time. Skin wrinkles. Breathing weakens. Thought processes ramble. Emotions fade and the will falters. Nothing “everlasting” can exist in time, yet we are made to desire everlastingness.

Heaven only “works” if it is outside of time. If we have difficulty wrapping our minds around this, it is because we are thinking about it using our natural, timebound heads.

ICXC NIKA.
 
It seems to me easier to think in terms of movement rather than time. However, that said, I don’t know if this will add anything of interest to this topic - as given below i.e. extracts from the philosophical thoughts of Baron von Hugel. You may find them interesting:-

*“Grace does not abolish Nature, but perfects it” is the fundamental axiom of all the teaching of Aquinas. And hence, as leavened bread cannot exist without the meal, or salt water without the salt; this particular bread, without this its particular meal, and this particular salt water, without this its particular salt; so neither can super-naturalised man exist without human nature; this particular man, without this his particular Nature.

Thus in Heaven each soul will retain the essentials of its particular Nature, expanded, completed, elevated by its particular super-nature, as this super-nature has now and there found its final form and fullness. And thus again, there will not, indeed, exist in Heaven husbands and wives, parents and children, brothers and sisters, and the other sweet relationships of earth - just simply as such, and merely because they existed upon earth - but will continue substantially in Heaven in so far as this relationship has become the essential natural material of our supernatural life here on earth, and in so far as it thus requires to continue as the essential natural substratum of our full supernatural life in Heaven.

Hence, if truly transfigured by grace already here, these relationships can and will continue, in their substance, fully and finally transfigured there.

The saved spirits, then, will receive, exercise, enjoy, aid, and complete a richly various, deep and tender, social life with fellow souls. And as the intercourse of these spirits with God is not simply mental or abstractly contemplative, but quite as much emotional, volitional, active, efficacious; so also this their intercourse with the fellow souls is mental, emotional, volitional, active, efficacious."*
 
trevorStamm: Hello.God(Jesus)tells us that heaven will last for all eternity.God created heaven outside of our time not outside of His time.
 
GEddie said:
Time is a “side effect” of our material world and it’s entropy-driven physics, which powers every process in it, including our human bodies and minds. All of our physical or psycho-spiritual functioning is limited by it.

But, as such, it runs to an end, because all entropic processes run down in time. Skin wrinkles. Breathing weakens. Thought processes ramble. Emotions fade and the will falters. Nothing “everlasting” can exist in time, yet we are made to desire everlastingness.

Heaven only “works” if it is outside of time. If we have difficulty wrapping our minds around this, it is because we are thinking about it using our natural, timebound heads.

ICXC NIKA.
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Time is the result of finite creation, the first cause. It is not a side effect, but a necessary causation for finite life to exist. Only God is unbound by time to exist, if we say we can exist without time we are equating ourselves to God, extreme heresy. In order for anything, that is below God, to exist it must require time to exist. This includes life in heaven.

Human entropy was introduced because of The Fall. Was all entropic processes brought into our material world because of that too? I don’t know, it seems likely but it couldn’t have been from the beginning. Why would God create material existence just to have a universal death? If Adam and Eve didn’t sin and would’ve never sinned, they would have lived from the time of their creation to indefinite. If they would be immortal, why would God place them in a universe that would have a finality? It seems likely that all entropic processes exist because “death entered the world through one man’s sin”, The Fall. But as you said “Nothing ‘everlasting’ can exist in time” is true in our material world that lost divine grace of God and death entered into our material existence. But our souls are everlasting and we exist in this time space, somewhat of a conflict with that doctrine you have. Observe Church doctrine of eternal souls. If souls cannot be destroyed or have entropy and exist from time indefinite, where do they go upon bodily death? Only in an entropy-free existence. This is why we say heaven and hell are eternal and everlasting, but not timeless. Also we do not desire everlastingness because we already have it, we desire that everlastingness to be in the presence of God in heaven.
valentino said:
trevorStamm: Hello.God(Jesus)tells us that heaven will last for all eternity.God created heaven outside of our time not outside of His time.
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Eternity does not exclude my theory. I ask to you reread all my posts.

You think heaven is infinity and without time, let re-demonstrate by a geometrical line:

legend: symbols < and > represent infinity. Symbol “0” represents point of creation, first cause.

heaven
<-------------------------------------------------------------------->

and you think our material space time is:

universe
0--------------------------------------------------->

my proposition is heaven and our material world exist with the same timeframe and same speed, just two parallel rays going on forever:

heaven:
0------------------------------>
universe:
0------------------------------>

Hypothetical: let’s pretend for a moment that heaven has a faster time space then ours of about 5 minutes. Your going to die in our earth time space in 3 minutes, are you already in heaven? Heaven has a 5 minute faster time space so whatever is about to elapse in our time space, heaven has already seen and experienced it. Does this make sense?

This is the same application with the suggestion of a heaven without time. With this notion, heaven has already experienced everything that will happen in our time space. Also since this space has no time it is unbound in both directions of past and future, so whatever happened in our time space has already existed before hand in heaven. This is all demonstrated by my 2nd premise in my OP and my point of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
 
TrevorStamm: We don’t know what God’s plan for man was before Adam’s sin.Ihe bible states God created the heavens aand earth.Here God was referring to heaven as the area above the earth as heaven.I’m not as philosphical as you.I have a difficult time following your thoughts as you relate them to me.I’m not sure if I’m making any point in what a said above.If you have any comments or questions i’ll answer.If not I understand.
 
Heaven qua place is in time. Not our time, of course, but some kind of time nonetheless. Time is a measure of change, and so wherever there is some kind of change, there is a before and after that change, and hence time. In Heaven, there will be material bodies which move, hence change, and therefore there is time. We are also capable of thought in Heaven, just as the angels are. Since our thought, even in Heaven, will not be the perfect kind of omniscient ever-present now that is God, our thought will have some kind of chronology (i.e. there will be a before and after we had a particular thought.)

Heaven is eternal, but it is also in time. St. Thomas explains that only God is eternal properly speaking, i.e. outside of time. For other things that we speak of being eternal what we mean is an infinite succession of time. Since Heaven will have no end, it is eternal, just as all men (even the damned) will experience some kind of eternal life because our souls are immortal by nature.

Heaven qua Beatific Vision (i.e. qua state of being) does, however, have an aspect of true eternity (being outside of time), because it is a form of intimate union with God Himself as He truly is. In other words, we will enter into a form of union with eternity Itself, and hence our experience of that would have an aspect of eternity.
 
Katholish said:
Heaven qua place is in time. Not our time, of course, but some kind of time nonetheless. Time is a measure of change, and so wherever there is some kind of change, there is a before and after that change, and hence time. In Heaven, there will be material bodies which move, hence change, and therefore there is time. We are also capable of thought in Heaven, just as the angels are. Since our thought, even in Heaven, will not be the perfect kind of omniscient ever-present now that is God, our thought will have some kind of chronology (i.e. there will be a before and after we had a particular thought.)

Heaven is eternal, but it is also in time. St. Thomas explains that only God is eternal properly speaking, i.e. outside of time. For other things that we speak of being eternal what we mean is an infinite succession of time. Since Heaven will have no end, it is eternal, just as all men (even the damned) will experience some kind of eternal life because our souls are immortal by nature.

Heaven qua Beatific Vision (i.e. qua state of being) does, however, have an aspect of true eternity (being outside of time), because it is a form of intimate union with God Himself as He truly is. In other words, we will enter into a form of union with eternity Itself, and hence our experience of that would have an aspect of eternity.
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Exactly.

We understand heaven is not part of our world, or material existence in this dimension. But if we think of it as another dimensional time-space, it becomes a parallel dimension to ours at the same speed or change-rate (good use of words?) as ours. I.e. x (person) is going to die in 2 minutes, x is not in heaven until death in this dimensional time-space.

If we count from 0 to infinity it’ll take infinity (from point 0) to reach infinity. This is not to say there is no time involved though since there is a point of origin to start from. If we affirm a point of origin we accept continuous movement or change from that point to infinity. If we understand negative numbers (-1, -2, etc
) there is no point of origin to choose from, no movement no change no time. This is true infinity, and this is how we understand God’s existence. But since heaven has a point of origin it is not true infinity but everlasting existence, from point 0 to infinity. Therefore heaven has a progression of change or movement, nether faster or slower then ours but same constant.
 
We have to read Genesis with “Jewish eyes”. In their cosmology “heaven” was the stuff that we would now call “space” and earth is the world down here. It did not mean “where we go after we die.” The Jews called that Sheol (or Gehenna if you went the wrong way).
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
My belief that it isn’t outside of time is based on:
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G-d is the literal act of existing. Existence precedes everything else. G-d is therefore Omnipresent. Which means that He is equally present at every point in existence. Time is an illusion He doesn’t need.
 
Tremorstamm: Try if you would explain this.God has no time.He always was.Which of course outside of time.At some point he created Heaven.Now we are told that Christ sits at the right hand of the father in Heaven.Did God move into something He created?
 
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