Heaven Permanently Closed?

[Evan]

Why the question about Mary and Heaven? She was assumed AFTER the resurrection so the gates were open when she ended here life.

God Issued a decree In Gen 3:24 :: When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Hence the gates to heaven are closed.

According to St John Chrisostom (Homilies on Matthew)

In Lk 23:42-43 :: Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Is when the gates were opened.

Thus John joined the decree heard by Eve in Gen to the removal of the decree heard by the new Eve in Lk.

Thus John joined the decree given to Adam in Gen to the removal of the decree by the new Adam in Lk.

 

[Matt16_18]

michaelgazin:

What about Mary’s unique situation? I understand that her salvation is entirely dependent on the being of her Son, but is it dependent specifically on the sacrifice of her Son, as is everyone else’s?

God’s plan was for Adam and Eve to be fruitful in the terrestrial Paradise (i.e. God wanted Adam and Eve to have children in the terrestrial Paradise). God did not will for Adam and Eve to become rebels who would later bring forth children in Satan’s kingdom. It was not God’s perfect will for Adam and Eve to bring forth a race of people in bondage to Satan and in need of salvation from their bondage to sin.

God’s plan for humanity always involved Mary. If we had been born in the terrestrial Paradise, at the fullness of time, Mary would have been born, and the Son of God would have become incarnate through Mary. When the Son of God took on human nature in the terrestrial Paradise, all of nature would have been elevated to a new glory. In this role, Mary would have still been the spiritual mother of us all, because Mary would have brought us to the new creation by being the Mother of God. Had the Fall never occurred, Christ’s death on the cross would have been unnecessary for us to enter into the new creation in Christ. We would have entered the new creation through the Incarnation.

Eve is the “woman born of man”, and she is the mother of all in our humanity. The man called his wife Eve, because she became the mother of all the living.
Gen. 3:20Mary is also “the woman born of man”, because Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary is the new Eve. Mary was the first person to be reborn by the grace of God, and that is how Mary is “the woman born of man”.

If the Fall had never occurred, Mary would have been immaculately conceived (as would all of humanity). But God had a special role for Mary from the very beginning – she was predestined to be the holy vessel of the Incarnation. By being the Mother of God in the terrestrial Paradise, Mary would have been elevated in grace from the state of original justice to the higher grace of one who partakes in the divine nature.

Mary is a daughter of Eve in her humanity, but Eve was destined to be a spiritual daughter of Mary in the new creation in Christ.

 

[Matt16_18]

Evan:

Why the question about Mary and Heaven? She was assumed AFTER the resurrection so the gates were open when she ended here life.

God Issued a decree In Gen 3:24 :: When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Hence the gates to heaven are closed.

Heaven is not the terrestrial Paradise!

 

[Matt16_18]

awalt:

I am not sure about Enoch either, here is the relevant Bible verse that sure sounds like they were taken to heaven:

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God

Enoch and Elijah were “taken up”, but taken up where? To the terrestrial Paradise or to the Heaven of the Blessed? Jesus descended to the dead, so it is clear that Enoch and Elijah were not “taken down” to Abraham’s bosom in the abode of the dead (Sheol –Hades- Hell).

How could Enoch and Elijah, who were conceived in original sin, ever enter the Heaven of the Blessed before Christ offered the sacrifice that removed the effects of original sin? Jesus himself explicitly states, “No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.”

This is why various Fathers of the Church, Saints and mystics say that Enoch and Elijah (Henoch and Elias) did not go to Heaven - they were taken to the terrestrial Paradise where they await to return to earth to be martyred in the era of the Antichrist.

For example: in the last days before the Judgment, the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, thanks to this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the Law to them.
(St. Augustine)

“During the three and a half years of Antichrist’s reign God will send Henoch and Elias to help the Christians.”
(St. Benedict)

For three and a half years [the Antichrist] will hold sway and, at the end of that period, he will put to death Henoch and Elias, who will have previously opposed him by preaching the true faith. Shortly afterwards, Christ will appear, and Antichrist will be killed by Michael the Archangel.
(Adso the Monk, 10th Century)

Elias will cause the rain, dew and snow to cease in those countries where the inhabitants oppose the two prophets and refuse to reject Antichrist. The first land to be so punished will be Palestine in order to win over the Jews. After Elias finds the `Ark of the Covenant’ of the Jews, (hidden until the recall of the Jews to God), he and Henoch will place the Blessed Sacrament upon it. The Jews will then realise the Jesus Christ and not Antichrist is the true Messiah. They will desert Antichrist and make a pilgrimage to Mount Nebo (where the Ark is found) bewailing the hardheartedness of their ancestors. Thereafter they will accept the Christian faith. The Antichrist will kill Henoch and Elias and leave them unburied. These will, however, be resurrected after three and one-half days and ascend into heaven in a cloud in the presence of their enemy. This miraculous event will actually confuse Antichrist. In order that the nations will not abandon him, he will lift himself with great majesty into space on Mt. Olivet, with the purported intention to cast down the prophets who have ascended into heaven. But in this moment Christ will strike him down. The earth will open and swallow him and his prophets alive. Then a large part of Jerusalem will fall into ruins from the earthquake."
(Dionysius of Luxemburg)

members.tripod.com/~Fabio001/antichristyves.txt

---

The Harrowing of Hell.

(The story of Christ’s descent into Hades and his delivering the Just who were in the bondage of death is told in the Acts of Pilate and the Gospel of Nicodemos, two of the ancient apocryphal texts which throughout the ages have formed part of the spiritual reading of Orthodox Christians. They have never been regarded as scripture, but have been respected for the insight, the wisdom and the beauty of the story they contain. The texts of Great Sabbath make considerable use of these apocrypha.)

But the Lord holding the hand of Adam delivered him unto Michael the archangel, and all the saints followed Michael the archangel, and he brought them all into the glory and grace of Paradise. And there two old men met them, and when they were asked by the saints: “Who are you that have never been dead in Hades with us and are placed in Paradise in the body?” Then one of them answered: “I am Enoch who was brought here by the word of the Lord, and this that is with me is Elias the Thesbite, who was taken up in a chariot of fire: and up to this day we have not tasted death, but we are kept until the coming of Antichrist to fight against him with signs and wonders of God, and to be slain by him in Jerusalem, and after three days and a half to be taken up again alive on the clouds.”

arimathea.co.uk/harrowin.htm [/indent]

 

[seashell]

michaelgazin:

I think it is clear that Adam and Eve would have and could have entered heaven without Jesus’ Sacrifice if they had not sinned (or technically they were already there, as was said above). Through Adam’s sin however, heaven was closed, though it seems that heaven was closed to mankind entirely through original sin…and anyone born without that stain would not be barred from heaven as the rest of mankind. In what ways was Mary incapable of attaining heaven, despite her sinlessness, without Jesus’ sacrifice? Can this teaching be found Biblically? Just as Adam and Eve would not have needed Jesus’ sacrifice had they remained unsinful, so too would be the same for Mary correct? This can’t be correct, I’m just looking for clear reasoning why.

This brings up a question I’ve had for a very very long time. I’m not trying to be offensive; it’s just a question.

Why at the beginning of the bible it says that Seth was born of Adams likeness and the whole line all the way to Jesus is followed and stops right after Jesus was born. How come the bible doesn’t say that Cain and Able were born of Adam’s likeness. The only thing I can think of is that Seth got a special blessing and that’s the line God chose to prepare for the savior. I thought maybe God was purifying that line for the birth of Jesus and maybe it took that many generations. It’s a crazy thought, but maybe.

 

[seashell]

I think the gates of heaven are wide open. Look at what Jesus said in Matthew: All of the OT Saints arose and walked around the city. I believe they walked around and Jesus rose from the dead they all followed.

27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 22:30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 22:31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[michaelgazin]

Matt16_18:

God’s plan was for Adam and Eve to be fruitful in the terrestrial Paradise (i.e. God wanted Adam and Eve to have children in the terrestrial Paradise). God did not will for Adam and Eve to become rebels who would later bring forth children in Satan’s kingdom. It was not God’s perfect will for Adam and Eve to bring forth a race of people in bondage to Satan and in need of salvation from their bondage to sin.

God’s plan for humanity always involved Mary. If we had been born in the terrestrial Paradise, at the fullness of time, Mary would have been born, and the Son of God would have become incarnate through Mary. When the Son of God took on human nature in the terrestrial Paradise, all of nature would have been elevated to a new glory. In this role, Mary would have still been the spiritual mother of us all, because Mary would have brought us to the new creation by being the Mother of God. Had the Fall never occurred, Christ’s death on the cross would have been unnecessary for us to enter into the new creation in Christ. We would have entered the new creation through the Incarnation.

Eve is the “woman born of man”, and she is the mother of all in our humanity.The man called his wife Eve, because she became the mother of all the living.

Gen. 3:20
Mary is also “the woman born of man”, because Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary is the new Eve. Mary was the first person to be reborn by the grace of God, and that is how Mary is “the woman born of man”.

If the Fall had never occurred, Mary would have been immaculately conceived (as would all of humanity). But God had a special role for Mary from the very beginning – she was predestined to be the holy vessel of the Incarnation. By being the Mother of God in the terrestrial Paradise, Mary would have been elevated in grace from the state of original justice to the higher grace of one who partakes in the divine nature.

Mary is a daughter of Eve in her humanity, but Eve was destined to be a spiritual daughter of Mary in the new creation in Christ.

Did this answer the question

I understand that her salvation is entirely dependent on the being of her Son, but is it dependent specifically on the sacrifice of her Son

If so, where, because I may have missed it. It seems this issue has yet to be directly addressed. I don’t believe adam, eve, or enoch or any other Biblical figure is dependent or necessary to determine the question of Mary. Is she the only human, save Jesus Himself, that was not saved through Christ’s sacrifice?

 

[Evan]

Matt16_18:

Heaven is not the terrestrial Paradise!

You could take that up with St John… Just reported his views.

Where is the terrestrial Paradise with the tree of life and flaming sword? The closed paradise was not the terrestrial Paradise either.

I don’t know if there ever was a terrestrial Paradise, but I think Paradise = Heaven. Something you deny. Yet that is where Jesus said he was going.

Hell and Heaven being up and down makes no sense. For up and down have no meaning in this world if you change your focus from the earth’s surface to earth orbit. Those are probably human terms used to indicate the relative spiritual position (Father is Up; and away from the Father, Down).

 

[Matt16_18]

michaelgazin:

I don’t believe adam, eve, or enoch or any other Biblical figure is dependent or necessary to determine the question of Mary. Is she the only human, save Jesus Himself, that was not saved through Christ’s sacrifice?

Mary participates in the divine nature of God because of God’s unconditional love of humanity. Is it possible to separate the love of God from Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross?

 

[Matt16_18]

Evan:

Where is the terrestrial Paradise with the tree of life and flaming sword?

Where it has been ever since Adam and Eve were cast out the terrestrial Paradise.

I don’t know if there ever was a terrestrial Paradise, but I think Paradise = Heaven. Something you deny.

Where does scriptures ever refer to the terrestrial Paradise as the Heaven that the Son of God descended from when he became incarnate in the fallen world?

Yet that is where Jesus said he was going.

Jesus told that the good thief that he would be with Jesus in paradise on this day. Jesus was not equating paradise with Heaven, since Jesus descended to the dead on Good Friday, and Jesus did not rise from the dead until the third day. Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until forty days after he resurrected from the dead.

The paradise that Jesus brought the good thief to was Abraham’s bosom (the limbus patrum), a place in Sheol (Sheol = Hades = Hell = the abode of the dead).

You might want to read these articles in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm]HellHell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:

 hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;

 the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;

 the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;

 purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.​

newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm]Terrestrial Paradise

Hell and Heaven being up and down makes no sense.

Scriptures speak of Christ descending to the dead and ascending to Heaven.(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:9-10

No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
John 3:13

Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
John 6:62

Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
John 20:17

 

[michaelgazin]

Matt16_18:

Mary participates in the divine nature of God because of God’s unconditional love of humanity. Is it possible to separate the love of God from Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross?

I believe Christ’s sacrifice was the ultimate expression of God’s love for us, but I don’t believe all God’s love is confined to the sacrifice…similar to how the entire Bible is God’s inspired Word, yet not all God’s Word exists in the Bible.

To say that Mary was saved by God’s love, and God’s love is expressed in the cross, therefore Mary was entirely saved by Christ’s sacrifice…I believe is a bit more convenient (for lack of a better word) than logically and scholastically justifiable. It is also dependent on the reality that Christ’s sacrifice is completely God’s love (which it is), but that God’s love is completely his sacrifice on the cross, which I dont necessarily agree with. If this concept is untrue, then the equation does not work either.

Perhaps this can be addressed from another angle…would there be any theological rammifications if it were to be concluded that Mary could indeed have been saved without Christ’s sacrifice do to her sinlessness? Technically she would still be saved entirely by God’s graces and love alone, therefore would this view conflict with Catholic theology at all?

 

[Matt16_18]

seashell:

I think the gates of heaven are wide open.

The gates of Heaven are open now, but they were closed before Christ died on the cross. The just souls who died before Jesus was crucified were not dwelling in Heaven, they were waiting in Hell (Sheol) for Christ to open the Gates of Heaven. See post # 30: Hell can have the meaning of “the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam”. Jesus descended to the limbus patrum on Good Friday, and that is why we say in the Nicene Creed at Mass, that “Jesus descended to Hell, on the third day he rose again”.

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

Christ Descended into Hell

632** The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

 

[michaelgazin]

I got an answer from Robert Sungenis:

…as a member of the human race, Mary would have been infected with Original Sin if not for her Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception was the result of sanctifying grace Mary received directly from God, and the grace was given because of the future merits of Christ’s Atonement. This is why Mary says “I rejoice in God my Savior” at the birth of her Son (Lk 1:47). In that sense, Christ’s atonement was applied before it actually took place, as it was for all the Old Testament saints (cf., Rom 4:1-8). One distinction that should be made, however, is that while Christ’s Atonement is the “meritorious cause” of her Immaculate Conception, her Motherhood of God is the “final cause.” The Council of Trent made these distinctions concerning Justification in Chapter 7 of Session 6:

Justification itself follows this disposition or preparation, which is not merely remission of sins [Canon 11], but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unjust man becomes a just man, and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be ‘an heir according to hope of life everlasting’ [Titus 3:7]. The causes of this justification are: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Christ and life eternal; the efficient cause is truly a merciful God who gratuitously ‘washes and sanctifies’ [1 Cor 6:11], ‘signing and anointing with the Holy Sprit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance ’; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, ‘who when we were enemies,’ ‘for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,’ merited justification for us [Canon 10] by His most holy passion of the wood of the Cross, and made satisfaction for us to God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the ‘sacrament of faith,’ without which no one is ever justified. Finally the unique formal cause is the ‘justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but by which He makes us just’ [Canon 10 and 11, Augustine, On the Trinity, 14,12,15; ML 42, 1048], that, namely, by which, when we are endowed with it by him, we are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed, but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the ‘Holy Spirit distributes to everyone as he wills,’ and according to each one’s own disposition and cooperation.

 

[Matt16_18]

michaelgazin:

To say that Mary was saved by God’s love, and God’s love is expressed in the cross, therefore Mary was entirely saved by Christ’s sacrifice…I believe is a bit more convenient (for lack of a better word) than logically and scholastically justifiable.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross not only brought about the satisfaction of the sins of the world, it released the infinite merits of the Cross to humanity. (See the Pocket Catholic Dictionary for the distinction between satisifaction and merit).

The Sacrament of Baptism removes all sin and all the temporal punishment due sin. That is because the Sacrament of Baptism is an immersion into the death and resurrection of Jesus, and since Jesus’ death made satisfaction for the sins of the whole world, all our sins and the temporal punishment due our sins are removed by Baptism.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1263 ** By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.
The Sacrament of Baptism does much more than simply cleanse us from our sins, this sacrament also makes us “partakers of the divine nature”. This is the gift that Adam and Eve were destined to receive – the gift that would have elevated their souls to the state even higher than that which they possessed in original justice.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

265** Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.
Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, and Mary never committed personal sin - so there was no need for satisfaction to be made for Mary’s sin. But Mary could be elevated to new level of sanctity through the sacrifice of Jesus – and she was. Mary stood at the foot of the cross, and she was sprinkled with the blood and water that gushed forth from the side of Jesus when he was speared in the heart. This was Mary’s baptism – this was how Mary was born from above to become the first person of the new creation in Christ. Mary had no need to have sin removed from her soul, but Mary could derive benefit from the infinite merits of the sacrifice of the Cross. This is why the quote that you gave says: “Christ’s Atonement is the “meritorious cause” of her Immaculate Conception”.

Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross is not only the meritorious cause of Mary being conceived with out sin, it is also the meritorious cause of Mary being reborn as child of God who partakes of the divine nature. Mary was the first human to receive the gift of partaking of the divine nature, and through this gift she is the spiritual mother of all children of the new creation. All of us receive the grace of divinization from Christ through Mary. “She who was once Mary” is the Mediatrix of all graces.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

969** “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

 

[Matt16_18]

michaelgazin:

After the Fall…was Heaven permanently closed to humans until Jesus in essence re-opened the pathway to Heaven?

Even before the Fall, Heaven was closed to humans (Heaven is the beholding of the beatific vision - Adam and Eve never beheld the beatific vision, because if one ever sees the beatific vision it is impossible to sin - ever).

The gift of partaking of the divine nature of God and seeing the beatific vision is something that God gives to humans as an unmerited and wholly gratuitous gift. Adam and Eve were also without sin before the Fall, and they did not have a right to Heaven, because no one deserves Heaven, not even sinless people. Adam and Eve were destined for the beatific vision only because of the unfathomable mercy of God.

Someone claimed that Mary did not need Jesus’ sacrifice to attain Heaven. Their argument was that if she had died sinless and without original sin prior to Jesus’ death, that she would still go to heaven because she would have been perfect. I claimed that Heaven was closed to all mankind until Jesus’ sacrifice regardless of the person’s sinful nature. Is this a correct statement?

I believe you are correct, because even sinless people would have no valid claim that they are due entrance into Heaven apart from the merit of Christ.

Why could Mary not gain Heaven in her sinlessness prior to Jesus’ sacrifice?

Mary had no right to claim that she is due a participation in the divine nature because of her sinless conception. Her Immaculate Conception is a gift from God, something that she did not earn. No human can make any claim on a right to Heaven because of how they lived, even if they live a sinless life. Mary, like all humans, enters Heaven purely as a gratuitous gift received through the merits of Christ.CCC 492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.