Heaven, Puragtory, Hell

[ejb21]

toTanner

You can read it any way you want, but first we die and then we are judged.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Then, of what value are indulgences? I know they are of no value in determining salvation.

Jon

I’m assuming you are referring to how indulgences used to be stated in terms of 300 days, etc. Too many misunderstood this and that is why the Church thought it prudent to stop using those descriptions. When it was said that it was an indulgence of, say, 300 days – it did not mean that the indulgence took 300 days off your time in Purgatory. It meant that this indulgence was as meritorious as an early Christian doing 300 days of penance (here we’d go into the whole steward of the treasury of blessings discussion).

To quote the Catechism 1471:

What is an indulgence?

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”(Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.) “An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.”(Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3.) Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

 

[Tanner9188]

toTanner

You can read it any way you want, but first we die and then we are judged.

**Let’s put in another way you may help understand the differentiations between the Christian and non-Christian. What is the purpose of judgment? What is the verdict to those who are judged; there are only two, unless you are Catholic, then 3 (counting purgatory as a interim judgment if you will) 1) guilty or 2) not guilty

So is a Christian judged as guilty or not guilty? What penalty does a Christian suffer?

Now let’s look at what will will actually be “judged” on. I use the word “judge” in its loosest sense of the word for your sake. We are all “judged” on our deeds; to those who are not Christians, judged guilty before the High Court and the penalty is hell or permanent absence from God.

Christians “judged” as not guilty because Christ bore our guilt as our “Great Substitute”…praise the Lord! What is the penalty??? none; we’ve been acquitted by the “Chief Justice”, Christ Himself.

Now the rewards for the deeds:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but {only} one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then {do it} to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.” - describes a well disciplined and world-class athlete; those that have the honor of running the race are the believers and they are running for those imperishable rewards in heaven. Everyone is a winner that perseveres because that is how we know the wheat from those tares.

Paul is NOT speaking of loosing his salvation as some misuse the context of the passage; especially in light of Scripture as a whole which teaches the assurance of salvation.

Philippians 3:13-16 “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.” - Pauls encouragement to keep on keeping on!

Note: Greek for prize: “brabeion” = metaphor; of the heavenly reward for Christian character

Purgatory??? 2 Corinthians 5:8 I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written…”

How fast is the twinkling of an eye? The speed of light is 300,000 (or 3x105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds (ie 1/2 x1/3 x 10-4 x 10-5 seconds), or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person’s eyeball twinkle: pretty fast. Before you could say “what just happened”…

Matthew 10 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. "He who receives a prophet in {the} name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.”

Peter the foundation of a church???
1 Corinthians 3 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. …If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Colossians 3 “Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.”**

**Hebrews 10 “For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.”

This is what God has to say to you and to everyone of us; be thankful and may the Lords peace be with you all.**

 

[Robert_in_SD]

**…unless you are Catholic, then 3 (counting purgatory as a interim judgment… **Nope. With Catholics the verdict is either heaven or hell. Purgatory is only for those on their way to heaven. As others have already noted, there are no second chances. Purgatory is not “probation.”
Tanner:

…What [temporal] penalty does a Christian suffer?

The temporal penalty one suffers depends upon what sort of Christian that person was. Did that person die in friendship with God, but with some attachment to sin? If so, then that attachment must be dealt with because nothing unclean enters heaven. (Rev 21:27)
Tanner:

…the penalty is hell or permanent absence from God.

You need to distinguish between eternal punishment (heaven or hell) and temporal punishment (intended to address attachment to sin). Purgatory deals with the man or woman who is “saved” - in the sense that he or she avoids being sorted with the goats - but for whom there is still an attachment to sin:

[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)
Tanner:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27…
Paul is NOT speaking of loosing his salvation

Of course he is. That is why he warns Christians … lest we run the risk of becoming “disqualified” ourselves. You really have to warp this passage to say it does not contradict OSAS. He’s clearly speaking of losing THE prize - i.e. salvation.
Tanner:

Philippians 3:13-16 "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on … Paul’s encouragement to keep on keeping on!

I see nothing in this passage inconsistent with the doctrine of Purgatory. He’s speaking about attaining eternal salvation. Purgatory does not address this issue. It addresses the issue of personal attachment to sin remaining in the person who is already saved.

[A]
bsent from the body… [is at] home with the Lord. ?]

The verse reads: “[8] We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” This text does not support the conclusion often ascribed to it by protestants, that there are but two possibilities, in the body or present with the Lord. For example, if I were to say, “I would rather be away from my office and at home with my kids” this does not imply, nor should you infer, that I can only be either at work or at home. I could also be at mass, or the gym, or the beach, or at a movie. This passage simply does not negate the notion of a Purgatorial stop on the way to Heaven.
Tanner:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 "Behold… in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; … we will be changed.

Not sure what your point is here. First, the passage is speaking of the resurrection and the general judgment neither of which conflicts with the notion of Purgatory. Second, Purgatory is a state that would seem to exist outside of time, so we do not know how long one would experience it in time as we know it. Again, it seems you are confusing the concepts of eternal punishment and temporal (temporary) punishment.
Tanner:

Matthew 10 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it…

This passage does not speak to the temproal punishment due for past sins previously forgiven, nor does it speak to the need for removing all attachment to sin before entering heaven where nothing unclean may enter. (Rev 21:27)
Tanner:

Peter the foundation of a church???
1 Corinthians 3 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid

, which is Jesus Christ. …If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.Peter is the Rock upon which Christ built HIS Church. Christ is the foundation upon which everyone builds the works of his or her life. 1 Cor. 3 is not speaking about The Church. It is speaking about individuals and how they lead their lives; how the Day will reveal their works; and how they may suffer loss yet still be saved as through fire.
Tanner:

Hebrews 10 "For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.

Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised."Again, nothing contradictory here either. I think you are coming at the issue without really understanding it. Purgatory is not about heavenly rewards or about earning your way into heaven, or even about completing the salvific work of Christ. It is, rather, the fiery final application of that sanctification. Perhaps you are not getting the Catholic perspective because you see justification as an imputed righteousness only, and not as a real change in the person by grace - making clean and holy what was not clean because of Original Sin?
Tanner:

This is what God has to say to you and to everyone of us; be thankful and may the Lords peace be with you all.

I am thankful for what scripture has to say; and I am thankful for what Christ’s Church has to say as well.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

And this makes sense, particularly when explained as it is here:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

[1] An instant cleansing, by the Grace of God, for the sake of His Son, at the moment of death. One can describe it as a brief encounter with the “fire” of divine love to cleanse, and I don’t think many Lutherans would balk.

[2] A place or state of “punishment”, lasting for a specific amount of time, based on the number of and types of penance, or indulgences earned by oneself or by others, that is where we take issue.
I hope that it is an issue to be discussed in dialogue. Perhaps a convergence is possible.

Jon

I think that Purgatory may very well be as you describe in [1] above. We really don’t know exactly what it will be, but theologically, it is sound and consistent with Christian doctrine (properly understood).

As for [2] I think that’s what many Catholic and Protestants believe Purgatory is, but I think it is a bit misleading. While we understand that Purgatory deals with any remaining temporal punishment due for mortal sins that have already been forgiven, or lesser sins that have not destroyed one’s relationship with Christ (or “state of grace”) it does not necessarily follow that what happens occurs in time as we know it. The punishment is temporal in the sense that it is temporary and not eternal. Similarly, the “punishment” due is not an eternal punishment, but rather a restitution that comes by dealing with the temporal consequences of one’s sins (and attachments to sines)

I believe another person has already addressed the “days” issue related to indulgences. That may clear up some confusion (which sadly exists even among some Catholics who are not well catechized).

I think that if your perception is correct a convergence is possible. It comes down to a willingness to see Purgatory for what it is at its roots, as opposed to looking at some medievel artistic renderings of the theological concept and postulating from that very emotive point of view.

Purgatory is entirely consistent with Christian doctrine. I think that, whether good or bad, many non-Catholics approach it from a very emotionally charged perspective, given the history and context of the Reformation era.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

I think that Purgatory may very well be as you describe in [1] above. We really don’t know exactly what it will be, but theologically, it is sound and consistent with Christian doctrine (properly understood).

As for [2] I think that’s what many Catholic and Protestants believe Purgatory is, but I think it is a bit misleading. While we understand that Purgatory deals with any remaining temporal punishment due for mortal sins that have already been forgiven, or lesser sins that have not destroyed one’s relationship with Christ (or “state of grace”) it does not necessarily follow that what happens occurs in time as we know it. The punishment is temporal in the sense that it is temporary and not eternal. Similarly, the “punishment” due is not an eternal punishment, but rather a restitution that comes by dealing with the temporal consequences of one’s sins (and attachments to sines)

I believe another person has already addressed the “days” issue related to indulgences. That may clear up some confusion (which sadly exists even among some Catholics who are not well catechized).

I think that if your perception is correct a convergence is possible. It comes down to a willingness to see Purgatory for what it is at its roots, as opposed to looking at some medievel artistic renderings of the theological concept and postulating from that very emotive point of view.

Purgatory is entirely consistent with Christian doctrine. I think that, whether good or bad, many non-Catholics approach it from a very emotionally charged perspective, given the history and context of the Reformation era.

Peace,
Robert

And peace also with you.

Thanks Robert, for your clear and, as usual, patient response. I do think we have a view of Purgatory as the reformers saw it 500 years ago. Here is an area where dialogue, I think, can bring convergence.

I’d also like to hear an Orthodox view, if Mickey or Hesychios cruise through this thread.

Jon

 

[mark_a]

Rather, I believe that god, in his mercy, causes those souls to perish. That it, they completely die, never to be resurrected, never to know or have consciousness again, as if they never had lived.

Oh my!

 

[ejb21]

Many thanks to Robert in SD for responding to Tanner. You certainly covered all the bases.

 

[StillWondering]

Then, of what value are indulgences? I know they are of no value in determining salvation.

Jon

From what I have heard, Indulgences is a Latin Rite understanding of penances. There are different type of penances. Some are doing prayers, some are doing works of charity, some are swallowing your pride. Indulgences are ways of sharing these things to help and strengthen each other. Catholics, here on earth, in Purgatory, and in Heaven all share in this spiritual body, the Body of Christ. And we can, in communion with each other, share and partake of each others charity and love to heal the holes created by sin.

 

[LiamUK]

Actually, I agree with you.
I think that there should be a place where people can go, to repent & change there ways if they didn’t follow God’s ways on Earth. And, if you refuse God in Purgatory, then I believe that Hell would be just/fair.

God gives us only the one chance to come to him. Once you die you are judged immediatly. You are sent to hell if you die in a state of mortal sin, but if you die in a state of venial sin you may be sent to purgatory in order to undergo cleansing. Everyone who goes to purgatory is saved and can be assured of their salvation.

 

[Tanner9188]

Nope. With Catholics the verdict is either heaven or hell. Purgatory is only for those on their way to heaven. As others have already noted, there are no second chances. Purgatory is not “probation.”

**I know that but did not quite know how to describe an imaginary place, which does not exist except in the Catholic mind and no other. **

Did that person die in friendship with God, but with some attachment to sin? If so, then that attachment must be dealt with because nothing unclean enters heaven.(Rev 21:27)

I did not follow anything in regards to temporal versus eternal punishment from Revelation 21:27 because it is not there. The writer is distinguishing what the New Heaven and New Earth will be like; one those being without any stain of sin…won’t that be wonderful. You will not find an accurate Scriptural contextual rendering of purgatory in Scripture; that was invented by the Roman Catholic Church. Nor will you find a distinction between mortal versus venial sins in the Scripture; to do so would change the perfect standard God has already set, which not even a tiny sin could be overlooked and needs a savior to reconcile one before God. But purgatory and the use of distinctions of sins serves the purpose of the Church very well IMO. It keeps you in line with the Church, its practices and its hierarchy. Doesn’t mean it is correct, but it is effective as we can all see.

You need to distinguish between eternal punishment (heaven or hell) and temporal punishment (intended to address attachment to sin). Purgatory deals with the man or woman who is “saved” - in the sense that he or she avoids being sorted with the goats - but for whom there is still an attachment to sin:

**You need to I do not need to because I am not a Catholic; that is your tradition that is nowhere in Scripture.
**

[11] For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:11-15) Of course he is. That is why he warns Christians … lest we run the risk of becoming “disqualified” ourselves. You really have to warp this passage to say it does not contradict OSAS. He’s clearly speaking of losing THE prize - i.e. salvation.

Besides eternal salvation; their are other awards remember Jesus parable about the “good and faithful servants” ; what do you think Jesus is speaking about? All you have to do is look at the reason for the race and what the goal is and to keep on running to reach the prize; then he contrasts the perishable wreath with the imperishable; which in Rome they were awarded wreaths that perished during these contests as Christians we receive the imperishable. Prize (brabeion) = metaphor of the heavenly reward for Christian character. WHICH IS THE POINT.
It is about receiving of rewards; not losing salvation, which you can’t.
If you don’t believe that do a read of Hebrews 6:1-8, one can only drawl one of two conclusion depending who you determine the audience is; if you say it is a believers that have lost their salvation, then it clearly teaches that is impossible to come again to repentance. I would call that Once Lost Always Lost if you believe it is believers. This is not the only place in Hebrews for this same warning, nor is only limited to Hebrews for the same is in Galatians and I believe one other letter as well. If he is speaking to non-believers, then after being exposed to all the fullness of the gospel; then turning back; their no longer remains a possibility of salvation. As Catholic teaching goes; this is a real problem.

EDITED

The verse reads: EDIT that there are but two possibilities, in the body or present with the Lord. For example, if I were to say, “I would rather be away from my office and at home with my kids” this does not imply, nor should you infer, that I can only be either at work or at home. I could also be at mass, or the gym, or the beach, or at a movie. EDIT

**Real bad analogy; were are talking being dead on earth and present with the Lord
If you die at your office you won’t be seeing anything else would you?
2 Corinthians 5:8 (KVJ) “we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. .”
Look at the original Greek: searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2co+5:8&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en
**
EDITED

**1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. REWARD (misthos) = reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours; of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours **

Again, nothing contradictory here either. I think you are coming at the issue without really understanding it. It is, rather, the fiery final application of that sanctification. Perhaps you are not getting the Catholic perspective because you see justification as an imputed righteousness only, and not as a real change in the person by grace - making clean and holy what was not clean because of Original Sin?

What does justified before God mean? That is the issue; you Catholics co-join being declared righteous or freed form the penalty of sin before God, which is justification; with sanctification; the lifelong process of being conformed to the image of Christ. I understand why the Church gets it wrong, but it does present a critical difference concerning salvation, which in turns presents another gospel IMO. What is salvation, being saved from what? The penalty of sin, which is death and eternal hell; this is the negative to the positive, which is justification; no longer under the penalty of sin, which means no death.

I am thankful for what scripture has to say; and I am thankful for what Christ’s Church has to say as well.Peace,Robert

Purgatory is not a real, but imagined place and their are those who will be judged and condemned and those that will be rewarded based on their deeds. Were they from the heart for God or heart for self; the burning up will reveal this; yet the person may loose all their rewards or disqualify from receiving rewards, but not their eternal security.

 

[kalt]

**I know that but did not quite know how to describe an imaginary place, which does not exist except in the Catholic mind and no other. ****I did not follow anything in regards to temporal versus eternal punishment from Revelation 21:27 because it is not there. The writer is distinguishing what the New Heaven and New Earth will be like; one those being without any stain of sin…won’t that be wonderful. You will not find an accurate Scriptural contextual rendering of purgatory in Scripture; that was invented by the Roman Catholic Church. Nor will you find a distinction between mortal versus venial sins in the Scripture; to do so would change the perfect standard God has already set, which not even a tiny sin could be overlooked and needs a savior to reconcile one before God. But purgatory and the use of distinctions of sins serves the purpose of the Church very well IMO. It keeps you in line with the Church, its practices and its hierarchy. Doesn’t mean it is correct, but it is effective as we can all see.**You need to I do not need to because I am not a Catholic; that is your tradition that is nowhere in Scripture.
Besides eternal salvation; their are other awards remember Jesus parable about the “good and faithful servants” ; what do you think Jesus is speaking about? All you have to do is look at the reason for the race and what the goal is and to keep on running to reach the prize; then he contrasts the perishable wreath with the imperishable; which in Rome they were awarded wreaths that perished during these contests as Christians we receive the imperishable. Prize (brabeion) = metaphor of the heavenly reward for Christian character. WHICH IS THE POINT.
It is about receiving of rewards; not losing salvation, which you can’t.
If you don’t believe that do a read of Hebrews 6:1-8, one can only drawl one of two conclusion depending who you determine the audience is; if you say it is a believers that have lost their salvation, then it clearly teaches that is impossible to come again to repentance. I would call that Once Lost Always Lost if you believe it is believers. This is not the only place in Hebrews for this same warning, nor is only limited to Hebrews for the same is in Galatians and I believe one other letter as well. If he is speaking to non-believers, then after being exposed to all the fullness of the gospel; then turning back; their no longer remains a possibility of salvation. As Catholic teaching goes; this is a real problem.

EDITED

Real bad analogy; were are talking being dead on earth and present with the Lord
If you die at your office you won’t be seeing anything else would you?
2 Corinthians 5:8 (KVJ) "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. ."
Look at the original Greek: searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2co+5:8&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1&l=en

EDITED

**1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. REWARD (misthos) = reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours; of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours ****What does justified before God mean? That is the issue; you Catholics co-join being declared righteous or freed form the penalty of sin before God, which is justification; with sanctification; the lifelong process of being conformed to the image of Christ. I understand why the Church gets it wrong, but it does present a critical difference concerning salvation, which in turns presents another gospel IMO. What is salvation, being saved from what? The penalty of sin, which is death and eternal hell; this is the negative to the positive, which is justification; no longer under the penalty of sin, which means no death.**Purgatory is not a real, but imagined place and their are those who will be judged and condemned and those that will be rewarded based on their deeds. Were they from the heart for God or heart for self; the burning up will reveal this; yet the person may loose all their rewards or disqualify from receiving rewards, but not their eternal security.

Your last paragraph is a little confusing. I think you’re saying that we will find out in purgatory who will “go to” heaven and who will “go to” hell. This isn’t true. You are judged at death. Purgatory is a state of being cleansed. Once there, there is only one way out - heaven. All souls that are purified in purgatory “go to” heaven. No soul that is cleansed in purgatory goes to hell.

 

[Sellers1]

Alright, I am a “protestant” Christian, so I don’t know much about this Purgatory place.
But, I do know quite a lot about Heaven and Hell.

This is what I believe/was taught/read in the Bible:
-Heaven
-Hell
Nothing Else

God believes you are worthy of Heaven, you spend eternity there
God knows your heart, if it is not loving God, and you’re not obeying him, you go to Hell.

Is the belief in Catholicism that all people go to Purgatory? Or who goes there & how does God determine who is worthy to go there & who goes right to Hell (if anyone).
Do we wait in purgatory until the final judgement

Is Purgatory a place where we go (as a second chance). Where we can decide to become true “Christians”, then go to Heaven?

There is no such thing as Purgatory. It was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences (another made up premise) ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Not a shred of it comes from Scripture.

 

[Carlan]

Quote from RobertThe temporal penalty one suffers depends upon what sort of Christian that person was. Did that person die in friendship with God, but with some attachment to sin? If so, then that attachment must be dealt with because nothing unclean enters heaven. (Rev 21:27)(end Quote)

Yes, and all Christians face it not only Catholics. Protestants may not call it purgatory but if they have temporal penalty to deal with they will do their time of purification whether it be instantanious or whether if it takes until the last judgement. Only God knows! I thank God for Purgatory!:bowdown2: Carlan

 

[Carlan]

There is no such thing as Purgatory. It was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences (another made up premise) ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Not a shred of it comes from Scripture.

Watch out Sellers, Famous last words! :doh2: Carlan

 

[mark_a]

There is no such thing as Purgatory. It was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences (another made up premise) ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome.

Although abuses occur, Catholics have no monopoly on them.

Orthodox, and Eastern Catholics have a very similar belief.

Not a shred of it comes from Scripture.

Not so. biblechristiansociety.com/download/mp3/mary_and_the_bible.mp3

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well here is one thing remember the fales teaching that come out of non-cathloic like the false teaching of OSAS and the teaching on hell One of the most insidious heresies ever conceived is being taught in some non-Catholic Churches today…that hell does not exist. Now, who else other than satan himself would devise this evil deception that would lead thousands into such a false sense of security?

 

[ejb21]

Question for Sellers1

Do you believe in Sheol and Hades?

 

[ejb21]

Question for Tanner

Do you believe in Sheol and Hades?

 

[Bill_Pick]

i JUST POSTED A NEW THREAD ON THIIS NOW,purgatory,Hell or heaven