Heaven, Puragtory, Hell

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kalt said:
Your last paragraph is a little confusing. I think you’re saying that we will find out in purgatory who will “go to” heaven and who will “go to” hell. This isn’t true. You are judged at death. Purgatory is a state of being cleansed. Once there, there is only one way out - heaven. All souls that are purified in purgatory “go to” heaven. No soul that is cleansed in purgatory goes to hell.
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**
Purgatory is an imagined place; only in the minds of Catholics, unless the Eastern Orthodox believes the same.

In the last paragraph i was showing the similarity of justification to salvation. Justified before God is the positive side of being saved; whereas Salvation id the negative way to put justification. In other words, Salvation is being saved from something, which is sin and the penalty of sin, which is death and permanent separation from God; whereas being “declared righteous before God”, justification, is the Judge declaring us not guilty of sin; therefore we have eternal life.

The Catholic mind co-joins justification and santification into one; thus is the reason for the believe that one can lose their salvation, Christ’s work was not enough, and man works cooperatively with God’s grace through “sanctification/justification” until you get to purgatory. The last sentence is over simplified.

I was also trying to explain that the Christian is “loosely” judged by their deeds for rewards, not eternal salvation; whereas I tend to think of being judged after death as condemnation for the deeds.
Once we are declared righteous, we as Christians, have already passed judgment in this life with the promise of salvation and declared “not guilty”; now our works will be evaluated for heavenly rewards, which is not being judged in the condemnation sense of the word.

I hope that i was able to clarify a poorly written post; that is what happens sometimes when a million thought are going through your head at once and it is very late.
God bless and hope your weekend is great.

Tanner**
 
Carlan said:
Watch out Sellers, Famous last words! :doh2: Carlan
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2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
 
Tanner9188 said:
**Purgatory is an imagined place; only in the minds of Catholics, unless the Eastern Orthodox believes the same. **

In the last paragraph i was showing the similarity of justification to salvation. Justified before God is the positive side of being saved; whereas Salvation id the negative way to put justification. In other words, Salvation is being saved from something, which is sin and the penalty of sin, which is death and permanent separation from God; whereas being “declared righteous before God”, justification, is the Judge declaring us not guilty of sin; therefore we have eternal life.

The Catholic mind co-joins justification and santification into one; thus is the reason for the believe that one can lose their salvation, Christ’s work was not enough, and man works cooperatively with God’s grace through “sanctification/justification” until you get to purgatory. The last sentence is over simplified.

**I was also trying to explain that the Christian is “loosely” judged by their deeds for rewards, not eternal salvation; whereas I tend to think of being judged after death as condemnation for the deeds. **
Once we are declared righteous, we as Christians, have already passed judgment in this life with the promise of salvation and declared “not guilty”; now our works will be evaluated for heavenly rewards, which is not being judged in the condemnation sense of the word.

I hope that i was able to clarify a poorly written post; that is what happens sometimes when a million thought are going through your head at once and it is very late.
God bless and hope your weekend is great.

Tanner
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Thank you for your opinion.
 
Sellers1 said:
There is no such thing as Purgatory. It was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences (another made up premise) ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Not a shred of it comes from Scripture.
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LOL…did hold anything back? 😉
 
Bill_Pick said:
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny Prison; a real prison…hello friend.
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire "Awards; not purgatory"
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison Between His death and resurrection; He declared to those fallen demons/angels that despite His death; He has triumphed over them.
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus **How do you come up with such nonsense and try to teach others the same? Onesiphorus = “bringing profit”
  1. the name of a certain Christian in 2 Ti. 1:16-18, 4:19 **
    1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead And? What do you impose on Scripture to give a meaning to you? Paul’s point is that if there is no resurrection and no life after death, then why are people coming to Christ to follow the hope of those who have died.
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My God; what are you doing butchering the Holy Scripture like that?
 
LOL There are two more statements of Christ against this Mormon practice. Matthew 18:8 reads:

“Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee cut them off, and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.”
LUKE 16; 19-31
Here is the dramatic story Jesus told about the awful treatment the poor man Lazarus received from the rich man. Both died. Lazarus was saved and the rich man went to hell. The story is so lengthy I will quote only the pertinent part. The rich man in such torment in hell begs Abraham to send Lazarus with water to ease his sufferings. And Abraham replies:

“My son, remember that during your life good things came your way just as bad things came to Lazarus. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony. But that is not all: between us and you a GREAT GULF is fixed. So that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us THAT WOULD COME FROM THENCE.”
By his story Jesus clearly intends to state that the destiny of the saved and that of the lost is unchangeable. All merit must be done here on earth before death and then comes the final judgement.

. will quote a passage from St. Peter’s epistle - I Peter 3:19 which seems to approve of their baptism for the dead.

“For Christ…being put to death in the flesh quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
LDS interpret these words of Peter to mean that Jesus after His death went to the spirit world to preach the Mormon gospel to those who while on earth had no opportunity to hear it. Such spirits are given a chance to repent of their sins and believe in Mormonism. Such an interpretation is clearly contradicted by Matthew 18:8 and Luke 16: 19-. Therefore the your is teaching of this passage is wrong.

. Again amazingly, the Book of Mormon contradicts your teaching on baptism for the dead and their interpretation of I Peter 3:19.

“For behold if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of devil, and he does seal you his: therefore the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you AND THIS IS THE FINAL STATE OF THE WICKED.”

How can anyone have himself baptized for a person described in this passage from the Book of Mormon? Here we have confirmation of what Jesus taught. Repent before death for there is no opportunity in the next world. Therefore this LDS practice must be rejected. Jesus never taught it. Lastly this baptism for the dead is not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon which Smith said contained the “fullness” of the everlasting gospel.
 
ejb21 said:
Question for Tanner

Do you believe in Sheol and Hades?
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sheol= underworld, grave, hell, pit
  1. the underworld
  2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1. place of no return
    2. without praise of God
    3. wicked sent there for punishment
    4. righteous not abandoned to it
    5. of the place of exile (fig)
    6. of extreme degradation in sin
hades =
  1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
  2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
  3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
 
Bye folks; tired of talking about a fictitious place invented by men to control men and has served very well for centuries to those who are taught to believe in this fictitious place.
 
Tanner9188 said:
Bye folks; tired of talking about a fictitious place invented by men to control men and has served very well for centuries to those who are taught to believe in this fictitious place.
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See prays do get answer, and you get your info from WHAT
 
Tanner9188 said:
sheol= underworld, grave, hell, pit
  1. the underworld
  2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1. place of no return
    2. without praise of God
    3. wicked sent there for punishment
    4. righteous not abandoned to it
    5. of the place of exile (fig)
    6. of extreme degradation in sin
hades =
  1. name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
  2. Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
  3. later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
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Sheol (Hebrew), Hades (Greek), Purgatorio (Latin) are the same “state” in 3 different languages. You seem to claim, along with your friend, that purgatory is a made up story, but you offer no proof. Who made up this fable?, when was it invented?, why is there not a single piece of evidence of protest about this made up story? BTW, Augustine disagrees with you. In his book, “The City of God”, Augustine writes “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before the last and strictest judgment”. So, its between the two judgments (particular and final) that purgatory exists. And so, Luke 12:59 “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny”.
 
Sellers1 said:
There is no such thing as Purgatory. It was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences (another made up premise) ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Not a shred of it comes from Scripture.
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Okay, you have made a very big claim : that purgatory was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Where is your proof? Who started this fable?, when (exactly) was it started? Some of the greatest Christian minds who-ever lived, like Augustine, disagree with you.
 
ejb21 said:
Sheol (Hebrew), Hades (Greek), Purgatorio (Latin) are the same “state” in 3 different languages. You seem to claim, along with your friend, that purgatory is a made up story, but you offer no proof. Who made up this fable?, when was it invented?, why is there not a single piece of evidence of protest about this made up story? BTW, Augustine disagrees with you. In his book, “The City of God”, Augustine writes “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before the last and strictest judgment”. So, its between the two judgments (particular and final) that purgatory exists. And so, Luke 12:59 “I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny”.
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Most of what Tanner puts on this board does not make sense and he can never back it up I ignort his post
 
Tanner9188 said:
**I know that but did not quite know how to describe an imaginary place, which does not exist except in the Catholic mind and no other. ****I did not follow anything in regards to temporal versus eternal punishment from Revelation 21:27 because it is not there. The writer is distinguishing what the New Heaven and New Earth will be like; one those being without any stain of sin…won’t that be wonderful. You will not find an accurate Scriptural contextual rendering of purgatory in Scripture; that was invented by the Roman Catholic Church. Nor will you find a distinction between mortal versus venial sins in the Scripture; to do so would change the perfect standard God has already set, which not even a tiny sin could be overlooked and needs a savior to reconcile one before God. But purgatory and the use of distinctions of sins serves the purpose of the Church very well IMO. It keeps you in line with the Church, its practices and its hierarchy. Doesn’t mean it is correct, but it is effective as we can all see.****You need to I do not need to because I am not a Catholic; that is your tradition that is nowhere in Scripture.

Gabriel of 12;
Biblical Catholic Eschatology on judgement; At death a person is judged for his personal sins, to heaven, to Hell, or to purgatory if the sin is not deadly. The general judgement comes in the second coming when all living and deceased will be given eternal bodies joined to their soul, who will then reside eternally in Hell, or Heaven. Purgatory, sheol, hades (prison or holding place) will be done away with. Purgatory is the place where the souls that sin are not deadly but are being purged as through a fire.

Purgatory is not explicitly mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. Yet it is revealed. The word Trinity, Incarnation is not mentioned in the Bible. Yet Purgatory, Blessed Trinity, and the Incarnation of Jesus Christ are revealed in the Holy Scriptures/ Since the first Christian Community these Doctrines have been taught and believed in.

REVELATION 21: 27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (this is not a definition of purgatory but that not a taint of sin either by word or deed cannot enter heaven, a purging (purgatory) must take place.)

1 CORINTHIANS 3: 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire. ( ONE CANNOT SUFFER LOSS IN HEAVEN)

DEGREES OF SIN:

1 John 5: 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. 18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him. 19
We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

James 1: 13 No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. 16
Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers:

Matthew 12: 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Every penny paid:
Matthew 5: 21 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna. 23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

1 PETER 5: 5 Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.” 6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time. 7 Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you. 8 Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings. 10 The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little. 11 To him be dominion forever. Amen.

cont.**
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cont;

JESUS PREACHED TO THE DEAD:

1 PETER 3: 18 For Christ also suffered 5 for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. 19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 6 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. 21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him

1 PETER 4: 6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead 2 that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation, they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God. 7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore, be serious and sober for prayers. 8
Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaining. 10 As each one has received a gift, use it to serve one another as good stewards of God’s varied grace. 11 Whoever preaches, let it be with the words of God; whoever serves, let it be with the strength that God supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 5

. PURGATORY IS FOR THOSE WHOSE HEART IS RIGHT ALTHOUGH MAY CARRY VENIAL (LITTLE) SIN, THAT IS NOT DESERVING OF THE ABSOLUTE PUNISHMENT (SECOND DEATH).

2 Maccabbees 12: 38 Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the week was ending, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. 39
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
(This is the magesterium teachings of indulgences that comes from the ancient Hebrew belief, it is biblical and believed by Hebrew/Jewish teaching)

Hebrews 12: 25 See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven. 26 His voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, “I will once more shake not only earth but heaven.” 27
That phrase, “once more,” points to (the) removal of shaken, created things, so that what is unshaken may remain. 28 Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

SOULS IN PURGATORY SUFFER, BUT SAVED, WE PRAY FOR THEM AND SO DO THE SAINTS AND MARTYRS (WITNESSES) FOR US. THUS THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS.

Revelation 5: 8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. 9 They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation. 10 You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on earth.” 11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number, 12 and they cried out in a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.” 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

Revelation 8: 3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

1Corinthians 4: 1 Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

GOD FORGIVES SIN BUT STILL REQUIRED REPARATION:

2 Samuel 13: 13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: "The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. 14 But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die
 
ejb21 said:
Okay, you have made a very big claim : that purgatory was a fable made to scare people into paying to receive indulgences ultimately to fund the building of St. Peter’s Basillica in Rome. Where is your proof? Who started this fable?, when (exactly) was it started? Some of the greatest Christian minds who-ever lived, like Augustine, disagree with you.
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You seem to need educating on the Reformation.
 
Bill_Pick said:
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny
Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next
Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead
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How in the heck does the Catholic church dream up these outlandish mental gymnastic interpretations? And they say that the Mormons are way out there.
 
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