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Jaaye
Guest
Where does it say in the Bible that Heaven was closed as a consequence of Adam and Eve’s sin? … and… where does it say that part of the Messiah’s “mission” was to reopen Heaven?
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PJM
Guest
T
I did not say that this was the totality of Christ Mission; BUT one of the consequences of it.
Just as the term “BIBLE” is not found in the bible; this teaching is biblical but NOT precisely mentioned:
Genesis 3: 16-24
[16] To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee. [17] And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [18] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. [20] And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.
[21] And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. [22] And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. [24] And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
So here it is,
God Bless you
Patrick [PJM]
The question is not worded precisely:thinking: [You’re paraphrasing ME
I did not say that this was the totality of Christ Mission; BUT one of the consequences of it.
Just as the term “BIBLE” is not found in the bible; this teaching is biblical but NOT precisely mentioned:
Genesis 3: 16-24
[16] To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee. [17] And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [18] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. [19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return. [20] And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.
[21] And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. [22] And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. [24] And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
So here it is,
God Bless you
Patrick [PJM]
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Jaaye
Guest
Oh my… did I ask this attached to another question? It is my first post … I meant to ask it as a stand-alone question and must’ve messed up. . Catholics seem to have an understanding that as a consequence of the Fall, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden and a number of other consequences of their action were spelled out (as you have indicated in excerpts above). However one of these “understandings” appears to be heaven was closed until the Messiah’s sacrifice would reopen heaven — where does this understanding come from? It does not appear to be in Genesis, and does not even seem to be alluded to in Genesis (which is where I expected to find it when I went looking for it) … so how did we arrive at this concept that # 1 heaven was closed and #2 the prophesied Messiah would remedy that by his sacrifice in our behalf?
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Kei
Guest
It’s in the Bible, Jesus opened the gates of Heaven, it’s around where the Bible describes the Ascension.
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Jaaye
Guest
Nooo, I don’t think so. Gospels just say he was taken up to heaven. Heaven would have been reopened at his resurrection wouldn’t it (ie “this day you will be with me in paradise”) and not est. 40 days later at Ascension??
My question is from time of Abraham to Jesus (est. 3000 years??) God’s people had an understanding that Adam and Eve’s sin had closed the gates of heaven and that God would send a messiah who’s death and sacrifice would atone for our sins and also reopen heaven … so where does that come from?? Why/How did we all come to that understanding …what verse? what prophet? what text in OT or NT relays or reaffirms this promise of God to his people?
My question is from time of Abraham to Jesus (est. 3000 years??) God’s people had an understanding that Adam and Eve’s sin had closed the gates of heaven and that God would send a messiah who’s death and sacrifice would atone for our sins and also reopen heaven … so where does that come from?? Why/How did we all come to that understanding …what verse? what prophet? what text in OT or NT relays or reaffirms this promise of God to his people?
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De_Maria
Guest
You have to combine a few verses. In Genesis, it says:
Genesis 3:24 He expelled the man, stationing the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life.
In Revelation it says:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates.
The tree of life, is therefore, revealed to be in heaven.
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Hebrews 9:15 and Heb 11:39
Although it is mostly implied.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. 16 Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive.
The place where you learn all these things explicitly, is in the Doctrines of the Catholic Church.
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Jaaye
Guest
Yes… those are somewhat helpful …but NT sources don’t explain the 3000 years-ish of the Jews with a perceived understanding heaven was closed and the prophesied Messiah was the one who would remedy that with his sacrifice? This is so curious to me … I fully expected to find it (somewhere) and am a little taken aback I can’t. Thanks!
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Kei
Guest
Are you sure? I don’t have too much trust in my memory, but I was pretty sure. I could remember it. Something like, “And He ascended into Heaven, and unlocked its gates” or something like that. Now I can’t remember it very well after you tell me it’s not there. Wow, that’s weird.
But, to answer your main question. I’m not sure they thought all that. The Jews had a lot of types and things showing and pointing to Christ, but all in all, they were a little mixed on Messianic expectations, but there was quite a bit to be expected.
But let me say, like how we have tradition, the Jews also had tradition that was not written down in their holy books. Some of it is written down, which can shed some more light, in some places. For around Jesus’ time the most illumating of these places might be the Babylonian Talmud
But, to answer your main question. I’m not sure they thought all that. The Jews had a lot of types and things showing and pointing to Christ, but all in all, they were a little mixed on Messianic expectations, but there was quite a bit to be expected.
But let me say, like how we have tradition, the Jews also had tradition that was not written down in their holy books. Some of it is written down, which can shed some more light, in some places. For around Jesus’ time the most illumating of these places might be the Babylonian Talmud
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Jaaye
Guest
Yep. will take a look at the Talmud(s) but I still think it is very strange we have an understanding heaven is closed but not a reference source for it: Per Catholic Catechism:
CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.
So he opened the gates when He “descended into hell” after His death and at Resurrection
CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.
So he opened the gates when He “descended into hell” after His death and at Resurrection
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Kei
Guest
It’s a complicated subject and really depends on what you mean. In a sense, at Jesus’ baptism the gates of Heaven were opened, I believe the Church says.
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Jaaye
Guest
No, what you’re referring to is different. MT 3:16-17 [16] “After Jesus was baptized,he cam up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him) and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. [17] and a voice came from the heaves, saying, This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”
My question has to do with the ultimate destination of righteous souls. Before Christ died for our sins, Heaven was closed due to the Fall of Adam and Eve and the just and righteous waited in Sheoul or the Bosom of Abraham until Christ’s sacrifice was completed and Heaven was reopened to received all the just and righteous souls.
My question has to do with the ultimate destination of righteous souls. Before Christ died for our sins, Heaven was closed due to the Fall of Adam and Eve and the just and righteous waited in Sheoul or the Bosom of Abraham until Christ’s sacrifice was completed and Heaven was reopened to received all the just and righteous souls.
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De_Maria
Guest
You obviously know that this is true, you’ve even quoted the relevant Catechism passages. So, what’s the problem? You want to see it explicit in Scripture?
I take it, you’re not Catholic?
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Cjbhoward
Guest
It is my understanding that it was believed we all were laid to rest awaiting judgement before the days of Jesus. So while they may not have explicitly believed the gates of Heaven were closed, the Jewish people believed we were separated from God, the presence of God, due to our sin which we inherited from the first man & the first woman.
Throughout Jewish history, the people of God struggled with God. He was with them when He blessed Abraham, but left them when they fled to Egypt. He was with them when they were delivered from Egypt, but left when the Philistines dominated the region. He was with them in the days of Saul, David, & Solomon, but he left them when they were exiled in Babylon. So on & so forth. The Hebrew people were subservient to the Assyrians, Greeks, & Romans.
Many expected the Messiah to return their nation to prominance. They were looking for a temporal solution to an eternal problem.
All Jews believed the Messiah would redeem them in the eyes of God & return His favor to them. They did not understand the Messiah would in fact redeem them to God Himself.
Heaven is to be in the presence of God, the Holy of Holies. God is no longer separated from man by sin. The presence of God dwells with us. The Kingdom of God is at hand.
Throughout Jewish history, the people of God struggled with God. He was with them when He blessed Abraham, but left them when they fled to Egypt. He was with them when they were delivered from Egypt, but left when the Philistines dominated the region. He was with them in the days of Saul, David, & Solomon, but he left them when they were exiled in Babylon. So on & so forth. The Hebrew people were subservient to the Assyrians, Greeks, & Romans.
Many expected the Messiah to return their nation to prominance. They were looking for a temporal solution to an eternal problem.
All Jews believed the Messiah would redeem them in the eyes of God & return His favor to them. They did not understand the Messiah would in fact redeem them to God Himself.
Heaven is to be in the presence of God, the Holy of Holies. God is no longer separated from man by sin. The presence of God dwells with us. The Kingdom of God is at hand.
J
jas84173
Guest
When were they ever closed?
Messiah means “annointed one”. King David was a Messiah. Isaiah even called King Cyrus a Messiah. It means one who will liberate the Jewish people from affliction. Which is why Jewish people to this day reject Jesus as anyone but a number of failed Messiah Claimnants from first century Palestine.
They aren’t anymore free than they ever were when Christ came. 40 years after Jesus was crucified Jerusalem was completely destroyed. I can see how a certain opinion would reject him.
Messiah means “annointed one”. King David was a Messiah. Isaiah even called King Cyrus a Messiah. It means one who will liberate the Jewish people from affliction. Which is why Jewish people to this day reject Jesus as anyone but a number of failed Messiah Claimnants from first century Palestine.
They aren’t anymore free than they ever were when Christ came. 40 years after Jesus was crucified Jerusalem was completely destroyed. I can see how a certain opinion would reject him.
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Kei
Guest
If only they accepted it–then they’d have true freedom!
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Jaaye
Guest
Actually … I am catholic. My question was predicated by a conversation with a lapsed-catholic sibling … who has apparently decided catholicism is all bunk and pitched the whole-kit-and-kaboodle and is embracing God loves me no matter what I do – I’m baptised — once saved always saved – Jesus died for my sins so I’m “in”. To which I responded … actually I think you’re confusing redemption with salvation. Yes, Jesus died for your sins and redeemed all of mankind by taking our sins upon himself, conquering death and reopening the gates of heaven … which had previously been closed due the the Fall of Adam and Eve. Your salvation,however, is YOUR affair and is a composite of choices you make every day … you either choose to respect and revere God’s laws or you reject them – but as St. Paul said you must work out your own salvation with fear and trembling – Christ’s sacrifice did not give you a free pass into heaven. So… that started me looking for scriptural references of # 1 heaven being closed and # 2 Christ reopening heaven by his love and sacrifice for us… and here is where I am so far … 
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Gorgias
Guest
Actually… no.
Early on, there was no understanding of “eternal reward in heaven”/“eternal damnation in hell”. Rather, we see in the OT that early on, they thought that all the dead ended up in the “place of the dead” (‘sheol’ in Hebrew, ‘hades’ in Greek), in which the dead spent an eternity… just dead.
If you recall, even in Jesus’ day, there was a debate over whether there was heaven and hell (e.g., look at Jesus’ discussions with the Sadducees!).
Lots of them. Jesus affirms that he has come so that we might have life (cf John 10:10). In 1 Peter 3:18ff, we read that Jesus “preached to the souls in prison”, by which we understand to mean that he “descended to the dead” so that he might lead them to heaven, by virtue of his sacrifice. In his speech on Pentecost day, Peter affirms that, through Jesus, we will not be abandoned to the netherworld or see corruption.
Moreover, Jesus told the apostles to teach everything He had taught them (and the Gospels affirm that He taught more than is recorded in Scripture); that teaching comes down to us today not only through the Bible but also through the apostolic teaching of the Church.
So… there’s lots to go on, to understand this as true.
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De_Maria
Guest
Oh. I see.
Well, the way I deal with Bible alone folk, is to contrast their doctrine to the Catholic Doctrine of Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.
I do provide some Scripture support, but when they try to tell me that I must have more Scripture support, I turn my attention to the fact that they have no support for their doctrine of “Bible alone”.
Be that as it may, I would also be interested in explicit support from Scripture for this idea. But I’m afraid all there is is implied and you’ll have to bolster it with Tradition.
Well, the way I deal with Bible alone folk, is to contrast their doctrine to the Catholic Doctrine of Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.
I do provide some Scripture support, but when they try to tell me that I must have more Scripture support, I turn my attention to the fact that they have no support for their doctrine of “Bible alone”.
Be that as it may, I would also be interested in explicit support from Scripture for this idea. But I’m afraid all there is is implied and you’ll have to bolster it with Tradition.
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Jaaye
Guest
Thanks for your help… I"ll let you know if I bump into anything.
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