Heaven

[jakers93]

Hey, I’m 17 year old Catholic kid. I have a friend about the same age who was also raised catholic but now claims himself to be agnostic or atheist of some sort. I generally dont like to argue with him about it but recently on social networking site he mocked another friend of ours for believing in heaven. I wanna defend it but i honestly am having trouble with coming up with “proof” to atleast make him think about it. Could any of you help me?? Thanks, Jake.

 

[MarcoPolo]

We believe in heaven because we have faith in that which is divinely revealed. Also, we believe that there is historical evidence that the man Jesus was divine and was witnessed to have been raised from the dead. And it is in Him that we trust that there awaits us an afterlife united with God. I would not try to get into a “prove it” argument with an agnostic. You can’t prove it, nor can he disprove it. Like I said, we have faith in what has been divinely revealed. Your friend makes life-threatening decisions without proof all the time, like when he gets in a car that he won’t be killed, or that the restaurant food he orders isn’t poison.

I think you can offer your reasoning as to why you believe in the historical resurrection and teaching of Scripture and the Church. If he looks at the same evidence and rejects it, don’t be too concerned—you can’t make other people see or make decisions for them. Do your part explaining, pray and live your life as a good example. If you find yourself confronted with new questions you have trouble with, feel free to ask the good folks here.

 

[Barbkw]

Our souls came from God and upon our body’s death, they will return to Him for healing.

 

[Adeodatus]

Hey, I’m 17 year old Catholic kid. I have a friend about the same age who was also raised catholic but now claims himself to be agnostic or atheist of some sort. I generally dont like to argue with him about it but recently on social networking site he mocked another friend of ours for believing in heaven. I wanna defend it but i honestly am having trouble with coming up with “proof” to atleast make him think about it. Could any of you help me?? Thanks, Jake.

The existence of God can be proved as part of a “preamble” to the Faith. The existence of heaven cannot be established in that definitive way through natural reason alone, however the ‘fittingness’ of the proposition can be established.

Look at it this way: as human beings, our minds are able to consider things which are immaterial and purely formal… not just the four tires on a car but the Number Four. We are capable of mathematics, and of philosophy (we see not only beautiful things but can consider the definition of Beauty, etc.).

Still with me? This intellect that we have can consider not only the concept of Infinity, but also, given infinite time, it could consider objects in an infinite series. For example, there is no largest natural number (because any number you think of could have 1 added to it). We could just go on contemplating forever.

Our free will is a faculty derived from our intellect. Not only thinking but also willing (desiring, wanting, choosing) could go on forever.

Therefore it is fitting that there be a state in which the human intellect and will could be finally satisfied. Obviously, given infinite time (i.e. an immortal soul), human beings would either exist in a miserable state of infinite want (that is, go all eternity without ever gaining full satisfaction… i.e. everyone is doomed) or there would be something to satisfy us. Clearly, the only thing that could satisfy and infinitely knowing and desiring being is something which is (1) real (since reality is the source of our knowing), (2) infinite (since our capacities cannot be filled up by any series of finites, no matter how large), and (3) good (since we desire things on the basis of their being good in some respect).

Is there anything out there answering to the description of an “actual infinite good”? God. So direct union with God (seeing Him face to face… the “beatific vision”) is the only thing that could possibly satisfy a creature such as man.

This argument for fittingness depends on the existence of God (proved through natural reason) and the existence of an immaterial and imperishable soul in man (also proved through natural reason). But I’ll leave those for separate threads.

 

[Barbkw]

The Catechism has a lot to say about Heaven

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/h.htm

Heaven

beatitude of, 1729
beauty of heaven and the knowledge of God, 32
Christ and His Ascension into, 659-64, 665-67
Christ and His descent from, 440, 1001
Christians as citizens of, 2796
the Church and the glory of, 769, 778, 1042, 1053
communion between the Church on earth and in, 954-59, 962
creation of heaven and earth in the Apostles’ Creed, 198, 279, 325
Eucharist as the bread of, 1331, 1355, 1419, 2837
God, the Creator of heaven and earth, 212, 216, 269, 287, 290
hope and the glory of, 1821
kingdom of heaven
and the Beatitudes, 1716, 1724-25
and celibacy and virginity, 1579, 1618-19
and Christ, 541, 567, 763
and Christ’s passover, 541, 567, 763
and the Church, 865
and God’s will, 2826
and hope, 1817-18
and the keys, 553
and the Law, 577, 1964
and poverty, 544, 2544, 2547, 2556
Lord’s Prayer and, 2794-96, 2802
new heaven and the new earth, 1042-50
significance of, 326, 1024-26, 2794-95, 2802
treasure in, 2053

 

[mcrow]

You cannot argue Heaven with an aetheist.

Simply put, you cannot argue the existence of something that is dependant on believing in God without first proving (or at least convincing) that God exists.

If a person isn’t convinced God exists, you may as well not bother debating about Heaven.

Also, it does no good to use the bible as proof of God, as aetheists don’t believe in God and therefore the bible holds no weight to them. Since God does not exist to them the Catholic Church is invalid and thus the Catechism is also useless.

So, first you have to debate the existence of God and go from there.

 

[Barbkw]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804172.htm

Heaven is not an abstract idea or an imaginary place, but heaven is God, Pope Benedict XVI said.

Celebrating an early morning Mass Aug. 15, the pope said the feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary “urges us to raise our gaze toward heaven, not a heaven of abstract ideas nor an imaginary heaven created in art, but the true reality of heaven which is God himself. God is heaven.”

During the Mass in the small parish Church of St. Thomas, located on the main square in Castel Gandolfo, the pope said that while Mary’s assumption is “totally unique and extraordinary,” it also assures believers that their destiny, like hers, is to be with God forever.

God is “our goal, he is the dwelling place from which we came and toward which we are called,” the pope told about 200 people who had crowded into the church, while hundreds of others watched on a large screen erected in the square.

“We are all children of God the father, brothers and sisters of Jesus, children of our mother Mary,” the pope said. “And all of us want happiness, and that happiness is found in God.”

Pope Benedict said Mary, as the loving mother of her son’s followers, “helps us, encourages us so that every moment of our existence would be a step in this journey toward God.”

“Gazing at Mary, assumed into heaven, we understand better that our everyday lives – although marked by problems and difficulties – flow like a river toward the divine ocean, toward the fullness of joy and peace,” he said.

The pope said that in a world marked by “the sad spectacle of so much false joy and, at the same time, so much agonizing pain,” Christians must learn to be like Mary, “signs of hope and consolation.”

At midday, Pope Benedict recited the Angelus with visitors gathered in the courtyard of the papal summer villa.

He said that while the last mention of Mary in the Bible places her with the apostles awaiting the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, the church teaches that she was taken, body and soul, “from the earth to heaven.”

“This firm conviction of the church found its coronation in the dogmatic definition of the Assumption pronounced by my venerable predecessor Pius XII in the year 1950,” he said.

“From paradise, the Blessed Mother continues always, especially in difficult hours of trial, to watch over her children, whom Jesus himself entrusted to her before dying on the cross,” the pope said.

Pope Benedict said the hundreds of Marian shrines around the world testify to the fact that millions of Christians have and continue to experience her maternal love.

The pope specifically mentioned the Shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, which he will visit during a Sept. 12-15 trip to France.

“Mary assumed into heaven indicates to us the ultimate aim of our earthly pilgrimage,” he said.

“She reminds us that our whole being – spirit, soul and body – is destined for the fullness of life, that one who lives and dies in love for God and for one’s neighbor will be transfigured into the image of the glorious body of the risen Lord, that the Lord casts down the mighty and raises up the humble,” the pope said.

END

 

[ArchMind]

Any time someone who claims to be an atheist asks you to prove the existence of Heaven, God, or anything else for that matter, reply with this:

“If you prove logic exists, I’ll prove Heaven exists.” (Substitute the spiritual entity in question for “Heaven” as appropriate.)

You’ll beat them every time.

 

[Barbkw]

The existence of God can be proved as part of a “preamble” to the Faith. The existence of heaven cannot be established in that definitive way through natural reason alone, however the ‘fittingness’ of the proposition can be established.

Look at it this way: as human beings, our minds are able to consider things which are immaterial and purely formal… not just the four tires on a car but the Number Four. We are capable of mathematics, and of philosophy (we see not only beautiful things but can consider the definition of Beauty, etc.).

Still with me? This intellect that we have can consider not only the concept of Infinity, but also, given infinite time, it could consider objects in an infinite series. For example, there is no largest natural number (because any number you think of could have 1 added to it). We could just go on contemplating forever.

Our free will is a faculty derived from our intellect. Not only thinking but also willing (desiring, wanting, choosing) could go on forever.

Therefore it is fitting that there be a state in which the human intellect and will could be finally satisfied. Obviously, given infinite time (i.e. an immortal soul), human beings would either exist in a miserable state of infinite want (that is, go all eternity without ever gaining full satisfaction… i.e. everyone is doomed) or there would be something to satisfy us. Clearly, the only thing that could satisfy and infinitely knowing and desiring being is something which is (1) real (since reality is the source of our knowing), (2) infinite (since our capacities cannot be filled up by any series of finites, no matter how large), and (3) good (since we desire things on the basis of their being good in some respect).

Is there anything out there answering to the description of an “actual infinite good”? God. So direct union with God (seeing Him face to face… the “beatific vision”) is the only thing that could possibly satisfy a creature such as man.

This argument for fittingness depends on the existence of God (proved through natural reason) and the existence of an immaterial and imperishable soul in man (also proved through natural reason). But I’ll leave those for separate threads.

His friend is also 17 and they both were raised Catholic.

 

[YankeeRC]

You can make basic defenses of your faith.

You can ask him where his consideration is, where his respect is for other peoples beliefs is. Its no cool to be intolerant, is it?

You can point out how much God is important to you. You can make basic witness to how important Jesus Christ is to you.

If he does not believe in Heaven presumable he does not believe in Jesus Christ so start there. You can have him consider the C.S. Lewis quote that Jesus was either Lord, Liar or Lunatic;

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.”

Why would a story made up by 11 men (the Apostles) have made it this far? Why would have so many people followed this made up story even to persecution and death for over two thousand years if they didn’t believe?

 

[DianaCC]

Here’s a short one. If there’s no heaven, then there’s is no ultimate justice. Is your friend courageous enough to admit it?

 

[jakers93]

Thanks all for the replies. it has really helped, like you said its fruitless to argue but me and him aren’t at odds and thanks to you all I was able to produce some educated opinion and point of view! thanks!