Heaven.

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Nelka

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We hope and pray that we get to Heaven to be with God.

If you are in Heaven but a family member whom you loved here on earth has been condemned to Hell, would we remember them?

We cannot feel pain or loss for them as that would not be Heaven if we were upset.

Or maybe we would accept that it was their choice to live that way and move on?

Thanks.
 
I think we would generously love them and wish they were with us, but their absence would have no power to take away our joy in God.
 
Nelka said:
We hope and pray that we get to Heaven to be with God.

If you are in Heaven but a family member whom you loved here on earth has been condemned to Hell, would we remember them?

We cannot feel pain or loss for them as that would not be Heaven if we were upset.

Or maybe we would accept that it was their choice to live that way and move on?

Thanks.
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To me, “divine mercy” and “condemn to hell” is a contradiction unless Hell is a bootcamp, a temporary learning place. Otherwise, many people turn out to be a lot more merciful than God. Does a God who tells us to forgive an infinite number of times stop forgiving us when we die, or when we don’t believe, or when we don’t forgive someone else? Does God forgive us but send us away from Himself forever because we chose not to follow?

To me, our friends and family will be with us in heaven because Jesus is in their hearts. No one will choose against God when the choices are clear, a clarity that comes from knowing the value of God in all, including within our own hearts.
 
OneSheep said:
To me, “divine mercy” and “condemn to hell” is a contradiction unless Hell is a bootcamp, a temporary learning place. Otherwise, many people turn out to be a lot more merciful than God. Does a God who tells us to forgive an infinite number of times stop forgiving us when we die, or when we don’t believe, or when we don’t forgive someone else? Does God forgive us but send us away from Himself forever because we chose not to follow?

To me, our friends and family will be with us in heaven because Jesus is in their hearts. No one will choose against God when the choices are clear, a clarity that comes from knowing the value of God in all, including within our own hearts.
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God does not send people to Hell. They freely choose Hell by rejecting God’s love (committing a mortal sin) and dying unrepentant.
Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. There is no last chance after death to escape Hell.
To reject this Church teaching is heresy.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
 
thistle said:
God does not send people to Hell. They freely choose Hell by rejecting God’s love (committing a mortal sin) and dying unrepentant.
Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. There is no last chance after death to escape Hell.
To reject this Church teaching is heresy.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
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An “eternal fire” can just seem eternal. Anything is possible with God. The God I know forgives after people die. The God I know would only allow Hell if Hell is a place of cleansing. The humans I know will always repent in the clear face of the options. How can God hold us in the palm of his hand and then simply let go because we have died? Would you do this to your own children? Would you shun your own children because they had rejected you? Such a rejection is an opportunity for reconciliation and forgiveness. It is in life as it is in death. There is no life, no existence, separate from God. It is impossible.

I have gone through plenty of hell in this life, and I a sure you have too. God was always there. Why would it be any different after death? Why would it be any different in hell?

Let’s face it, our religion sends a mixed message. On the one hand, God loves unconditionally. On the other hand, God allows damnation without reversal. If we are unsure about God’s love, the second is believable and is our guide. Once we are sure about God’s love, the second is ridiculous. But I think the key is to accept that both messages have a place in our spiritual development. In my own journey, the path to such sureness is forgiveness.
 
OneSheep said:
No one will choose against God when the choices are clear, a clarity that comes from knowing the value of God in all, including within our own hearts.
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That “sounds” nice and is, in fact, what people say who believe in universal salvation.

However, we know well that angels in the very presence of God - who saw with great clarity - did choose to rebel.

I believe man is free to choose as well. The Bible tells us that there are those who hate the light … I think that some people so embrace evil that they truly do hate God and even upon seeing Him as He is, cannot stand to be in His presence. Truly it is something they have chosen and it is merciful (in my opinion) to not force them to be in His presence. I don’t think there are “many” for whom this is the case, but none of us really knows.

As to your op, I don’t think any of us know the answer to that, but it troubles me when I hear people say they “don’t want to be in heaven” if certain loved ones are not there as well.

It troubles me because it places your love for those other people, above your love for God. I spent a lot of time reflecting on that and realized that I, indeed, loved my family more than God and I took that to Him in prayer. He helped me to continue loving them while learning to love Him more, and honestly (now) I can say I love Him more than anyone or anything else.
 
OneSheep said:
An “eternal fire” can just seem eternal. Anything is possible with God. The God I know forgives after people die. The God I know would only allow Hell if Hell is a place of cleansing. The humans I know will always repent in the clear face of the options. How can God hold us in the palm of his hand and then simply let go because we have died? Would you do this to your own children? Would you shun your own children because they had rejected you? Such a rejection is an opportunity for reconciliation and forgiveness. It is in life as it is in death. There is no life, no existence, separate from God. It is impossible.

I have gone through plenty of hell in this life, and I a sure you have too. God was always there. Why would it be any different after death? Why would it be any different in hell?

Let’s face it, our religion sends a mixed message. On the one hand, God loves unconditionally. On the other hand, God allows damnation without reversal. If we are unsure about God’s love, the second is believable and is our guide. Once we are sure about God’s love, the second is ridiculous. But I think the key is to accept that both messages have a place in our spiritual development. In my own journey, the path to such sureness is forgiveness.
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You are wrong. Either you don’t understand or know what the Church teaches or you are rejecting it for your own teaching.
After death there is no chance for mortal sins to be forgiven. That is the Church teaching which has the authority of God behind it.
Purgatory is the place for cleansing before moving to Heaven.
Hell is not for cleansing. It is for eternal punishment. Hell is forever and those souls in Hell are there forever.
Our Church does not send out mixed messages on matters of faith and morals.
God does NOT send people to Hell. People choose to go to Hell by committing mortal sins (which is a rejection of God’s love) and dying unrepentant.
God gives everyone until their dying breath to repent and ask for his mercy. It is their free choice. Those who choose not to condemn themselves to Hell.
 
thistle said:
God does not send people to Hell. They freely choose Hell by rejecting God’s love (committing a mortal sin) and dying unrepentant.
Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. There is no last chance after death to escape Hell.
To reject this Church teaching is heresy.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
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Question :), Do we have to believe that the “eternal fire” is actual fire? Or can it be figurative language which exemplifies how bad eternal damnation is?
 
karebear92 said:
Question :), Do we have to believe that the “eternal fire” is actual fire? Or can it be figurative language which exemplifies how bad eternal damnation is?
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Modern Catholic Dictionary:

FIRE OF HELL. The physical reality, outside the person, by which those in hell are punished besides their loss of the vision of God. It is called fire in the Scriptures to emphasize the excruciating pain it causes, and to identify it as some external agent tormenting the lost. But it is not ordinary fire, since it does not consume what it burns, and, although material, it can affect the purely spiritual substance of the soul.
 
thistle said:
Modern Catholic Dictionary:

FIRE OF HELL. The physical reality, outside the person, by which those in hell are punished besides their loss of the vision of God. It is called fire in the Scriptures to emphasize the excruciating pain it causes, and to identify it as some external agent tormenting the lost. But it is not ordinary fire, since it does not consume what it burns, and, although material, it can affect the purely spiritual substance of the soul.
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Thank you.
 
thistle said:
Hell is not for cleansing. It is for eternal punishment. Hell is forever and those souls in Hell are there forever.
God does NOT send people to Hell. People choose to go to Hell by committing mortal sins (which is a rejection of God’s love) and dying unrepentant.
God gives everyone until their dying breath to repent and ask for his mercy. It is their free choice. Those who choose not to condemn themselves to Hell.
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You seem to have a fairly legalistic mindset, and I cannot argue against it. Try to have an open mind that there may be a different way of looking at these things. You are not “wrong”, and neither is the Church in drawing very clear lines in terms of what God can or cannot do. It is understandable.

My stance is that with God, all things are possible, and to say that doesn’t include anything concerning hell is putting a limit on God. God is Love. Leaving a loved one separated from yourself forever, with no chance of return, is NOT love, period. So there is the mixed message. And yes, it is a moral issue.

On the other hand, you have repeated that God sends no one to hell, that hell is a choice. I have chosen plenty of hell for myself, but that has had to do with my own lack of awareness. What does it mean to have “chosen” God? Are those choices really clear to people? If choosing to follow Jesus means to somebody that loving someone involves beating the **** out of them and leaving them forever, then they would be better off rejecting such a God. So, then, it boils down to the evangelist. Is the evangelist really communicating that God is love? If so, the choice is clear. But how is God’s love more commonly communicated? The God presented by most evangelists, unfortunately, is a God that loves very conditionally. God loves you if you love him, if you forgive, if you behave, etc etc. The fact is that nothing, absolutely nothing, separates us from the love of God. Not even our own choices. No power, no principality, nothing.
 
Hey Thistle,

I hit the wrong button in the middle of my comments so I am continuing here.

We unknowingly choose hell. We make choices that serve some purpose, seem to make life better in some way. We may hurt someone else doing so, but are we really aware of the value of the person we hurt? If not, we have not made an informed decision, it has been done out of ignorance. Ignorance is the most common reason for choosing hell. Do we ever hurt anyone intentionally while fully appreciating the value of that person? My answer: no. People who hurt others are blind.

So, I’ll get back to the point of this thread. Does anyone choose hell over heaven when the choices are clear? Well, it is not our nature, but let’s consider the possibility. Such a choice is simply suicidal. If the choices are clear, though, then even suicide is not a choice that people will make. So I don’t worry about all my friends and relatives being in heaven or not. Check Alan from Wichita’s thread on fearing hell. I don’t fear it; my friends, family, and even former enemies are there waiting in heaven.

I repeat, this is not about me being right and you being wrong. Every word of our vocabulary carries a different meaning to each of us. The points you make, and the way you make them, have their place. People will believe what makes more sense, and that “sense” will be a reflection of their own relationship with God. We can all call ourselves Catholic, if that is our affiliation, and there is room for everyone. Like Fr. Rohr says, it is not a matter of “either/or”, it is a matter of “both/and”.

With respect, and with an open mind to your response.
 
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