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PendingTheist
Guest
Does heavenly freewill exist to reject God after death? Satan and His demons did knowing God in all His glory. Adam got to talk to God and still chose to disobey. It appears hell is still an option after death.
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JerryZ
Guest
For us humans after we die we are judged, if we merit Heaven we will be allowed to enter it, once we are made perfect, purified so that all inclinations and attachments to sin are removed from our souls. After and only after that are we allowed to enter Heaven.
Once we are in Heaven our free will is still retained but since we have been made perfect it makes no sense that you would reject God.
For if you reject Him how can you claim to be perfect?
That I have free will to do something does not follow that I WANT to do it.
The Fallen Angels were given the choice to either serve God or reject Him when they were created. They were not in Heaven although they had a much closer knowledge of God. They chose NOT to serve hence they are FALLEN.
“Heaven was not yet open for business”
Only after Jesus sacrifice in Calvary and subsequent resurrection was Heaven opened.
Adam was NOT in Heaven before the fall, further he was NOT dead. He chose to dissobey God and here we all are fallen creatures.
And no, Heaven or Hell are chosen by us according to the lives we live here on Earth, once we die and are judged that’s pretty much it.
Make the most of your life, Jesus was pretty straightforward on this, we only live once.
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Once we are in Heaven our free will is still retained but since we have been made perfect it makes no sense that you would reject God.
For if you reject Him how can you claim to be perfect?
That I have free will to do something does not follow that I WANT to do it.
The Fallen Angels were given the choice to either serve God or reject Him when they were created. They were not in Heaven although they had a much closer knowledge of God. They chose NOT to serve hence they are FALLEN.
“Heaven was not yet open for business”
Only after Jesus sacrifice in Calvary and subsequent resurrection was Heaven opened.Adam was NOT in Heaven before the fall, further he was NOT dead. He chose to dissobey God and here we all are fallen creatures.
And no, Heaven or Hell are chosen by us according to the lives we live here on Earth, once we die and are judged that’s pretty much it.
Make the most of your life, Jesus was pretty straightforward on this, we only live once.
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ClearWater
Guest
“Does (heavenly) freewill exist to reject God after death?”
Freewill is a gift given to us. We can choose good or evil. It is not given with the purpose of rejecting God. We have been made in the divine image and likeness, and we have been designed to love God. In fact, it’s the ONLY way we can be happy! Some people foolishly think there exists some other way to happiness, but there is just none to be had!
Satan and his demons did know God in his glory, but still sinned. They did not want to obey God. Eve was tricked by Satan to disobey. She disobeyed out of pride, wanting to be like God, rather than subservient to him.
You are correct, hell is one of 3 options after death. There is heaven, hell, and purgatory. Of these 3, only two option are permanent, hell and heaven.
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PendingTheist
Guest
Thank you for your response. Was Adam made “perfect” by God the same way you describe being made “perfect” to enter Heaven? Job is described as perfect innJob 1:1 so did he nit need salvation? If Adam is perfect, then perfection does not guarantee heavenly salvation and if he was made imperfect with the ability to sin then is not the creator to blame. And if God is to blame and took responsibility by sending himself and having himself tortured and crucified to himself then why not just do this in the first place instead of killing and failing throughout the Old Testament ?For us humans after we die we are judged, if we merit Heaven we will be allowed to enter it, once we are made perfect, purified so that all inclinations and attachments to sin are removed from our souls. After and only after that are we allowed to enter Heaven.
Once we are in Heaven our free will is still retained but since we have been made perfect it makes no sense that you would reject God.
For if you reject Him how can you claim to be perfect?
That I have free will to do something does not follow that I WANT to do it.
The Fallen Angels were given the choice to either serve God or reject Him when they were created. They were not in Heaven although they had a much closer knowledge of God. They chose NOT to serve hence they are FALLEN.
“Heaven was not yet open for business”
Adam was NOT in Heaven before the fall, further he was NOT dead. He chose to dissobey God and here we all are fallen creatures.
And no, Heaven or Hell are chosen by us according to the lives we live here on Earth, once we die and are judged that’s pretty much it.
Make the most of your life, Jesus was pretty straightforward on this, we only live once.
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Nita
Guest
We enter heaven in a glorified state. Adam was not created in a glorified state.
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JerryZ
Guest
Uhmm are we mixing up terms here.
Perfection required to enter Heaven means to lack any inclination to sin. Because of our fallen nature it is soo easy for us to commit sins, we tend to sin even without realizing: When we loose our temper for example, or have an uncharitable thought, etc.
But to be able to enter Heaven we cannot have this tendency, we need to have it removed from us.
A human being CAN achieve perfection in this life by leading a life dedicated totally to Jesus following His teachings, but alas it is very hard for most people. This is why God gives us Saints to be as examples, but most people want to lead a life of debauchery. More fun perhaps.
And even a Saint still needs the help of God to remove all remnants of attachment to sin to be made perfect.
Perfection to enter Heaven is a gift of God, we are invited to enter Heaven when we listen to Jesus and follow all that He commanded, by ourselves we would never be able to enter Heaven.
Every Human from Adam onward needed to be saved through Jesus not because God was to blame for the excercise of free will of Adam, but as the result of Adam’s sin all the human race inherited the attachment to sin that Adam freely took upon himself.
The wage of sin was death, but God allowed that the punishment be spared to Adam, otherwise we would not be here would we?
Your last comment denotes the prevalent thought of our times, we want everything now. Instant gratification. We fail to realize that as humans, we have come a long way from where we started. So God should instead have just waved His magic wand over the human race and make every body perfect. Right? What is that saying in sports? NO PAIN! NO GAIN!
I guess God does not like spiritual couch potatos. He is not looking for Robots, had He wanted that I am sure He could have made them, the proof He is not interested in this is that even the Angels have free will.
Nope. We need! to work for our salvation, he sets the hoops and we need to jump through them, because guess what, HE is God and He does not need us, WE need Him. The important thing to remember is that HE loves us. If He didn’t would He go through all that trouble? EONS of nurturing and to send His SON to redeem us.
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fhansen
Guest
The Catechism teaches that God created His universe in a “state of journeying” to perfection. And that may be a very long journey, if need be. The goal, the perfection, is achieved as we freely, willingly, come to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. He didn’t force Adam to obey-and He won’t force us now; our perfection is actually situated in our properly formed wills, in our being transformed into beings who’s wills are aligned with His.
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Usagi
Guest
Adam lacked the inclination to sin that we have; his appetites and passions were completely under his rational control. But he was still free to choose to sin, and he did.
Those in Heaven, whether angels or human saints, have their wills fixed upon God. They would still possess free will to choose between different good things, but the central moral choice for or against God has already been made.
Usagi
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PendingTheist
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PendingTheist
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When contemplating the problem of evil and suffering in this world, I often hear “free will” as a justification. I understand that one of the most wonderful gifts God gave humankind (apart from the gift of his son) is the gift of free will. Without the ability to choose between good and evil or to choose whether or not we wish to love him, we would be nothing but robots. With the exception of the Calvinist, all Christians seem to agree that God does not want robots because robots are not capable of genuine love. God wants people to love him because they choose to love him not because they are programmed to do so.
The problem I have with this view is that it begs the question as to whether or not there will be free will in heaven as I mentioned this before. Will the theist know all their friends and family who were not believers are suffering an infinite torture because the Holy Spirit didn’t convert them before they died? Will they have the free will to lament over this? Many Christians are divided on this view of Heavenly Free Will.
On the yes side of those saying there will be free will in heaven, most say there will not be any sin. I don’t see how this is possible. If free will means the ability to choose between good and evil and/or the ability to choose whether or not to love God, how is it that no one can sin? It seems to be that it will be impossible to sin because there will no longer be any evil since Satan will, at long last, be out of the picture. This solution does not add up. If Satan’s presence is needed for there to be sin, then who made Satan sin in heaven before his fall from grace? Furthermore, if it is only the presence of Satan that causes people to sin, then why didn’t God, who is allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful, simply destroy Satan before creating Adam and Eve and placing generational sin on us?
Another reason there will be no sin in heaven is because sin is limited to the flesh. We can’t sin unless we are in the flesh. This response is incorrect since it is believed Satan (or Old Testament adversary) was not in the flesh but rather in the spiritual world, and yet, he sinned and out of pride chose to rebel against God. It seems to me that if one admits to a belief that there will be free will in heaven, one must also believe that there is no such thing as “once saved, always saved” or “eternal security” since free will would imply that even in heaven, people would have the choice whether to “sin” or “not sin” or whether to continue to love God and to wish to be in His presence or to decide that they do not find God lovable or worthy or good and wish to depart from His presence especially if He is anything like He is described in the Old Testament. Without the ability to choose whether or not one loves God, there really isn’t free will. On the other side some say they do not believe there will be free will in heaven, since there will no longer be “a need” for free will. Since most Christians argue that without free will, we’d only be robots, then such a stance would cause one to wonder why God does not want robots in this life but He does want robots for all eternity.
Some say that the reason there will not be sin in heaven is because God will have perfected them, i.e. they will no longer have a sin nature. Was Adam created with a sin nature? I’ll assume you say no, Adam was not created with a sin nature, but that he was created perfect. If Adam was not created with a sin nature, and yet he sinned, then we know that people who do not have sin natures CAN sin, and therefore, not having a sin nature in heaven will not be insurance against sinning and “losing one’s salvation”. If, on the other hand, one posits that Adam WAS created with a sin nature, then one would have to question the wisdom, worthiness, and goodness of a God who creates people with sin natures and then gets mad at them for having what He gave them. He created us sick and demands us to be well. To me, this would be like punching someone in the face and then being irate and punching them again when you saw that you had given them a black eye.
If God is capable of creating people who have free will but who do not have the ability to sin then why wouldn’t He have simply done this to begin with? If, on the other hand, one believes that this IS what God did when He created the Garden of Eden (i.e. if God set out to make a “heaven” for His creation but that this “heaven” got botched up when Eve ate the fruit) then how can one be sure that God’s second attempt at Paradise won’t become as botched as His first one did? If God couldn’t get it right the first time, why should we believe, have faith, or trust that He will get it right the next time around? In fact, Noah’s flood was a good example of not getting it right the first time.
The problem I have with this view is that it begs the question as to whether or not there will be free will in heaven as I mentioned this before. Will the theist know all their friends and family who were not believers are suffering an infinite torture because the Holy Spirit didn’t convert them before they died? Will they have the free will to lament over this? Many Christians are divided on this view of Heavenly Free Will.
On the yes side of those saying there will be free will in heaven, most say there will not be any sin. I don’t see how this is possible. If free will means the ability to choose between good and evil and/or the ability to choose whether or not to love God, how is it that no one can sin? It seems to be that it will be impossible to sin because there will no longer be any evil since Satan will, at long last, be out of the picture. This solution does not add up. If Satan’s presence is needed for there to be sin, then who made Satan sin in heaven before his fall from grace? Furthermore, if it is only the presence of Satan that causes people to sin, then why didn’t God, who is allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful, simply destroy Satan before creating Adam and Eve and placing generational sin on us?
Another reason there will be no sin in heaven is because sin is limited to the flesh. We can’t sin unless we are in the flesh. This response is incorrect since it is believed Satan (or Old Testament adversary) was not in the flesh but rather in the spiritual world, and yet, he sinned and out of pride chose to rebel against God. It seems to me that if one admits to a belief that there will be free will in heaven, one must also believe that there is no such thing as “once saved, always saved” or “eternal security” since free will would imply that even in heaven, people would have the choice whether to “sin” or “not sin” or whether to continue to love God and to wish to be in His presence or to decide that they do not find God lovable or worthy or good and wish to depart from His presence especially if He is anything like He is described in the Old Testament. Without the ability to choose whether or not one loves God, there really isn’t free will. On the other side some say they do not believe there will be free will in heaven, since there will no longer be “a need” for free will. Since most Christians argue that without free will, we’d only be robots, then such a stance would cause one to wonder why God does not want robots in this life but He does want robots for all eternity.
Some say that the reason there will not be sin in heaven is because God will have perfected them, i.e. they will no longer have a sin nature. Was Adam created with a sin nature? I’ll assume you say no, Adam was not created with a sin nature, but that he was created perfect. If Adam was not created with a sin nature, and yet he sinned, then we know that people who do not have sin natures CAN sin, and therefore, not having a sin nature in heaven will not be insurance against sinning and “losing one’s salvation”. If, on the other hand, one posits that Adam WAS created with a sin nature, then one would have to question the wisdom, worthiness, and goodness of a God who creates people with sin natures and then gets mad at them for having what He gave them. He created us sick and demands us to be well. To me, this would be like punching someone in the face and then being irate and punching them again when you saw that you had given them a black eye.
If God is capable of creating people who have free will but who do not have the ability to sin then why wouldn’t He have simply done this to begin with? If, on the other hand, one believes that this IS what God did when He created the Garden of Eden (i.e. if God set out to make a “heaven” for His creation but that this “heaven” got botched up when Eve ate the fruit) then how can one be sure that God’s second attempt at Paradise won’t become as botched as His first one did? If God couldn’t get it right the first time, why should we believe, have faith, or trust that He will get it right the next time around? In fact, Noah’s flood was a good example of not getting it right the first time.
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WesleyF
Guest
I am not a qualified philosopher, but I believe that it is not simply a question of free will but also a question of what drives free will. I think free will simply means the ability to choose. I do not think God will suddenly remove this ability in heaven because he intended us to have it.
I think that the choices we make (exercise of our free will) are driven by our knowledge and our feelings. It is the “mind” that ultimately makes the choice.
In heaven, we shall all think like Christ does. Already, Paul claims we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). In heaven, our mind will be conformed to Christ and therefore, though we have free will, we will always use our free will to make Christ-like choices, which precludes the possibility of rejecting God.
I think that the choices we make (exercise of our free will) are driven by our knowledge and our feelings. It is the “mind” that ultimately makes the choice.
In heaven, we shall all think like Christ does. Already, Paul claims we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). In heaven, our mind will be conformed to Christ and therefore, though we have free will, we will always use our free will to make Christ-like choices, which precludes the possibility of rejecting God.
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PendingTheist
Guest
Free will is partly an illusion. A person’s conscious thoughts, intentions, and efforts at every moment are preceded by causes of which he is unaware. What is more, they are preceded by deep causes—genes, childhood experience, etc.—for which no one, however evil, can be held responsible, however, our frontal lobe is what controls our actions from these involuntary thoughts. Our “free” thoughts are generated 7 seconds before we are aware of them. By monitoring the micro patterns of activity in the frontopolar cortex, the researchers could predict which hand the participant would choose 7 SECONDS before the participant was aware of the decision. “By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,” said study co-author John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist. The unconscious pretty much controls everything and it’s the frontal lobe that is the gatekeeper to these involuntary thoughts. The executive functions of the frontal lobes involve the ability to recognize future consequences resulting from current actions, to choose between good and bad actions (or better and best), override and suppress socially unacceptable responses, and determine similarities and differences between things or events. The reality of good and evil does not depend upon the existence of free will, because with or without free will, we can distinguish between suffering and happiness. With or without free will, a psychopath who enjoys killing children is different from a pediatric surgeon who enjoys saving them. Whatever the truth about free will, these distinctions are unmistakable and well worth caring about.
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thistle
Guest
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PendingTheist
Guest
Thanks for the short and sweet response. The Exclamation point At the end served as convincing evidence. Should be useful to those who are looking for answers and defending their faith.
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WesleyF
Guest
If all of these causes are conformed to Christ (mind of Christ) wouldn’t the exercise of free will always lead to acceptance of God as in the case of Christ?
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thistle
Guest
This was your question:
“Does heavenly freewill exist to reject God after death?”
That requires a yes or no. You didn’t ask for an explanation.
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PendingTheist
Guest
No. If one lived in the Middle East their genes and childhood experience most likely will conform to Muhamad and Allah.
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PendingTheist
Guest
Ok, then I’ll assume God wants us to be robots in heaven since according to you freewill does not exist in Heaven.
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TimothyH
Guest
At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, you will still get to choose between the chicken and the fish.
A nice Pinot Noir with your salmon? Or a big, buttery Chardonnay with your grilled swordfish? Or will it be a Pinot Grigio with your chicken francese? Why not have all three?
The choice will be yours.
-Tim-
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WesleyF
Guest
But we are talking about those who are in heaven, and that too from a Catholic perspective. From a Catholic perspective, the minds of all people in heaven will be conformed to Christ, no matter what childhood formation or genes they have had.
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