Here’s our exact conversation so far:
Craig, I’d like to address some of your points regarding Heb 11.
“Isaiah being killed by the saw is from the Talmud (not canonical)”
The point to make here is not that Hebrews 11 uses only biblical [sources], but that it uses only biblical [characters]. Even if Hebrews 11 takes it’s info of Isaiah from the Talmud (Ascension of Isaiah) to describe the death of the prophet Isaiah, which is certainly disputable, the fact remains that the prophet Isaiah is a biblical [character]. The introduction of non-biblical [characters] that are nowhere attested to in Scripture would cause, in the context of Hebrews 11, a rather sharp and unwarranted disjuncture from the rest of the text and be in contradiction to its earlier claim that those listed were “attested to”.
“and the enduring of torture to attain a better resurrection (2 Maccabees AND 3 Maccabees, one canonical in the RCC and one not, but canonical among the EO.) The fact that all of the events in Heb 11:35-37, and may I add verse 38 too, are a spattering of different events that are not entirely Biblical, it seems obvious to me that Paul is referring to historical events and not passing comment on the canonicity of where these events were recorded.”
Hebrews 11 presents examples of men and women who lived out their supernatural faith in Sacred Scripture. Included among these people of faith are the Maccabean martyrs, as described in the deuterocanonical book of Second Maccabees. Therefore, the inspired author’s Bible included the book of Second Maccabees, which he considered to be an authentic member of sacred scripture.
Where did the inspired author of Hebrews find these examples of supernatural faith? Was it from his own personal recollection or Jewish folklore or did he choose them from a specific source? Three times in the same chapter, the author states that the characters mentioned were “attested to” or gained a testimony” somewhere:
“…for by it the men of old gained approval [obtained a good testimony]” (Heb 11:2).
“…for he [obtained the witness] that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God!” (Heb 11:5)
“And all these, having gained approval [obtained a testimony] through their faith, did not receive what was promised…” (Heb 11:39).
Where are these heroes’ faith “attested?” Given that (1) the chapter is recounting sacred history (concerning supernatural faith), not secular history, (2) Hebrews explicitly states three times that these men and women are “attested to” somewhere and (3) the order given roughly corresponds to the order that they appear in scripture, there is little reason to doubt that the characters mentioned came from Sacred Scripture. More specifically, they came from the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament the Septuagint or LXX.
Among these biblical characters, we find the following “…and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection…” (Heb 11:35). Who were these Jewish martyrs? Hebrews 11:35 provides three identifying marks or traits: (1) they were Jews that were tortured, (2) they did not accept release (from torture), and (3) the motivation for choosing martyrdom was so that “they might obtain a better resurrection.”
Who in the Protestant Old Testament fulfills all three traits? The answer is no one. However, there are several characters in Second Maccabees that satisfy all three. In the sixth chapter of Second Maccabees, we find two examples of Jews who were (1) Tortured and (2) refused release:
2 Maccabees 6:22-23, “…So that by doing this he might be saved from death, and be treated kindly on account of his old friendship with them… but he made up his mind in a noble manner… so he declared that above all he would be loyal to the holy laws given by God.”
2 Maccabees 6:30, “When he was about to die under the blows, he groaned aloud and said: ‘It is clear to the Lord in his holy knowledge that, though I might have been saved from death, I am enduring terrible sufferings in my body under this beating, but in my soul I am glad to suffer these things because I fear him.”
We also find in the following chapter two examples of those who accepted martyrdom explicitly for sake of the Resurrection:
2 Maccabees 7:9 – “And when he was at his last breath, he said, ‘You accursed wretch you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe [will raise up to an everlasting renewal of life], because we have died for his laws.’”
2 Maccabees 7:14 – “When he was near death, he said, ‘[One cannot but choose to die at the hands of mortals and to cherish the hope God gives of being raised again by him]. But for you there will be no resurrection to life!”
No other individual or group of individuals in the Protestant Old Testament fulfills all three traits.
The inclusion of the Maccabean martyrs within this context shows that they were also “attested to” in the author’s copy of sacred Scripture. Therefor the inspired author’s Bible included Second Maccabees and his appeal to them shows his tacit approval for the book as authentic Scripture. Otherwise, we would be left with the rather bizarre scenario of the inspired author inserting, in this one verse, a reference to non-biblical characters as examples of supernatural faith for Christians to follow. Not only would a non-biblical character not fit within the overall context and structure of Hebrews 11, but it would contradict the inspired author’s repeated assertion that these “men of old” were “attested to”.
Then Craig responded:
I appreciate your response, but who are the biblical characters who wandered in deserts and lived in caves in verse 38. They would be chronologically after the maccabbean martyrs. It is clear that in the last few verses Paul left the scriptural examples and moved onto more recent examples not attested in scripture.
