Hebrew Scripture Translation and the Septuagint

[Pete_S]

Been searching the forum (and the internet) but have been unable to find a specific answer as to how the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures ended up with 7 more books than the Tanak. How did the translation generate additional information? Or is this revisionist history by which the Jews later removed these books after the destruction of the temple (which feels unlikely to me)? Sorry if I missed the answer here in the forum. This seems basic but I’m at a loss. Thanks.

 

[Aulef]

I believe this is a matter of whether considering some manuscripts and books canonical. The Holy Catholic Church defined that these seven books (Deuterocanonical books) are divinely inspired.

However protestants and jews do not consider them so.

Regarding revisionism, I have heard many stories that some people have been trying to hide and distort important passages and whole books of the Sacred Scriptures (Bible) in order to hide the truth about Jesus Christ being the promissed Mashiac. Another reason would be just to fabricate inconsistencies in the Scriptures.

Thank God there are many independent Bible sources, so we can check which information there is true.

When it comes to language, both have great value. I study both greek and hebrew versions (I prefer the hebrew versions though)

 

[Pete_S]

Aulef,

the book I am reading “Reading the Old Testament” 2nd ed by Boadt states that the difference in the 7 books is because the Septuagint had more books then were generally accepted in Palestine by the Hebrew and Aramaic speaking Jews. So does Catholicism claim the difference is that the books were removed after the translation or did the Jews claim they were never part of Hebrew scripture?

 

[Aulef]

You mentioned three different topics.

First, about hebrew jews not accepting the greek version of the OT. Yes, it’s sort of true. I say “sort of” because the Torah (five books of Moses) were kind of tolerated by the jews in palestine (israel). Actually, they were the ones who sent the Seventy (hence Septuagint) to translate the canonical mosaic writings from hebrew to greek. The rest of the OT in greek came later, translated by others and I don’t think they were well received by hebrew jews.

Second, those seven writings (“books”) existed before the greek versions were written. They were in hebrew and/or aramaic. But even the original ones were (and are) not considered inspired by God according to jews (afaik).

Third, Catholicism, unlike judaism, officially claims that those seven writtings are inspired by God. This is the main difference. When I mentioned omissions and distortions, I was referring to some theories in which canonical writings to both groups (so it doesn’t include the seven books) were changed in order to fabricate doubts whether Jesus Christ is the true Messiah.

 

[Pete_S]

Aulef,

sorry to create confusion. Your second answer was what I was trying to get at. I was having trouble finding that answer. I appreciate the help. I think my assumption was that the writings that were translated were from one source/scroll/etc might have been the source of my confusion.

 

[BartholomewB]

Second, those seven writings (“books”) existed before the greek versions were written. They were in hebrew and/or aramaic. But even the original ones were (and are) not considered inspired by God according to jews (afaik).

It is generally accepted that Greek is the original language of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees.

 

[Joe_5859]

At the time of Christ, there wasn’t one set canon that all Jews agreed upon. (If I recall correctly, that didn’t actually happen until several centuries after Jesus). So it’s not as though all the Jews at the time of Christ agreed upon the status of the deuterocanonical books.

 

[Aulef]

Aulef:

Second, those seven writings (“books”) existed before the greek versions were written. They were in hebrew and/or aramaic. But even the original ones were (and are) not considered inspired by God according to jews (afaik).

It is generally accepted that Greek is the original language of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees.

Indeed. The versions we have of these two books came from greek.

 

[BartholomewB]

At the time of Christ, there wasn’t one set canon that all Jews agreed upon. (If I recall correctly, that didn’t actually happen until several centuries after Jesus). So it’s not as though all the Jews at the time of Christ agreed upon the status of the deuterocanonical books.

The Hebrew Bible, in Jewish use, is divided into three sections: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. From what I’ve read, I believe the first two sections were already set in canonical form in the Herodian period, but the third not until some years later. That doesn’t mean, of course, that individual books in that section were held to be unsuitable in any way. The first book in the Writings section is Psalms, frequently quoted in the NT, even though, as far as anyone knows, it had not yet been formally incorporated into the Biblical canon in the time of Jesus.

The Law (Torah): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.

The Prophets (Nevi’im): Joshua, Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Twelve (the minor prophets from Hosea to Malachi)

The Writings (Ketuvim): Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and at the very end, 1 & 2 Chronicles.

 

[BartholomewB]

Indeed. The versions we have of these two books came from greek.

Yes, but not only “the version we have.” In both cases, it is generally accepted as the original text, written in Greek by Greek-speaking Jewish authors.

 

[Aulef]

Yep. I know. The oldest versions we have were written in such a way they probably weren’t translated from hebrew. This is why it’s generally accepted as originally written in greek.

I just don’t rule out the possibility of lost hebrew or aramaic versions as well, especially Second Macabees, which was written by jews who lived in Palestine. The jews there were very strict about using foreign language whenever the subject was their faith.

 

[Pete_S]

By the way, I think my initial confusion really came down to the fact that I poorly assumed the translation of Hebrew into Greek came from one source/book. As I thought more and discussed with Aulef i remembered that writings were on scrolls and therefor likely multiple sources. I was thinking of more current day books and couldnt determine how 1 book translated from another book gained information if that makes sense .

 

[Mintaka]

There was never really a Canon of Scripture for the Jews, until a century or so after Jerusalem was destroyed. The development of the Masoretic pronunciation signs also changed the Jewish idea of what was Scripture.

Obviously this was after Christianity had already started…

Basically, in Jesus’ time, most Jews would have agreed that the “extra” seven books were Scripture, which is why they are quoted so much in the Gospels and epistles. The Samaritans only accepted the Torah as Scripture. The Sadducees only accepted a few of the Prophets.

Even today, the author of Sirach gets quoted a lot by rabbis, and it is described as being Scripture in quite a few ancient rabbinical texts. (I read about this in a Jewish newspaper article.)

Also, many of the rabbis from Israel engaged in huge fights with the rabbis of Egypt over what was proper Jewish teaching and Jewish Scripture.

So there was a lot going on, while Judaism tried to figure out what to do without a Temple.

And it is definitely part of Jewish tradition for different groups to accept different books as divinely inspired.

 

[Dovekin]

Another factor was the diaspora, the Jews who lived outside of Palestine. They were responsible for the Septuagint, which itself was a sign they were moving away from Hebrew toward Greek as their primary language.
When rabbis settled on which books to include, they moved back toward the Hebrew. This served to solidify their connection to Israel, where the loss of the Temple and subjugation of royalty had cut down on the cultural importance of Israel.
Christians did not share those concerns, and they were also dispersed throughout the empire, so they kept using the extra books. (some eastern Christians have other Greek texts eg 3 & 4 Maccabees)