Hebrews 12:23 Proof of Purgatory?

[Michael68]

Hebrews 12:23 “and the spirits of just men made perfect”
Where can spirits be made perfect? Not in Heaven for they are already perfect. Not in Hell for there is only punishments there.
Where can a spirit be made pefect?

 

[YoungApologist3]

My mind’s not in the “apologetics mode of thinking” right now, but it seems that this passage does indeed affirm Purgatory’s existence.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

That’s a verse I’ve shared with my beloved protestant loved ones. Nobody seems to have a decent rebuttal for it. Spirits being made perfect…not flesh and blood, spirits. Coincides with 1 Cor 3:15

The more I dig into the scriptures the more i love and appreciate the Catholic Church…

 

[Michael68]

That’s a verse I’ve shared with my beloved protestant loved ones. Nobody seems to have a decent rebuttal for it. Spirits being made perfect…not flesh and blood, spirits. Coincides with 1 Cor 3:15

The more I dig into the scriptures the more i love and appreciate the Catholic Church…

That’s a great scripture!

 

[DaveBj]

Proof – no. Good evidence – yes.

 

[porthos11]

Hebrews 12:23 “and the spirits of just men made perfect”
Where can spirits be made perfect? Not in Heaven for they are already perfect. Not in Hell for there is only punishments there.
Where can a spirit be made pefect?

It supports it but doesn’t prove it.

“made perfect” can easily be understood (and correctly) to modify “just men”, not “spirits.” In which case, a perfectly reasonable objection would be that these are the spirits of the (just men made perfect), and that they were made perfect when they were justified, i.e. when they were still alive, and that they are part of the cloud of witnesses precisely because they had been made perfect when they were still on earth.

That would be a perfectly reasonable Evangelical answer.

 

[Michael68]

It supports it but doesn’t prove it.

“made perfect” can easily be understood (and correctly) to modify “just men”, not “spirits.” In which case, a perfectly reasonable objection would be that these are the spirits of the (just men made perfect), and that they were made perfect when they were justified, i.e. when they were still alive, and that they are part of the cloud of witnesses precisely because they had been made perfect when they were still on earth.

That would be a perfectly reasonable Evangelical answer.

Yes, it would be. But does this explanation conflict with the first part of verse 23 speaking of the assembly of the firstborn? It seems there are two groups of spirits.

 

[porthos11]

Yes, it would be. But does this explanation conflict with the first part of verse 23 speaking of the assembly of the firstborn? It seems there are two groups of spirits.

It wouldn’t. For one thing, the Greek does not allow any other modification: teleteiomenon, which is masculine can modify only dikaion, also masculine and not pneumasi, neuter. This is probably the main reason this verse is not invoked in the defense of Purgatory, at least, not as often at 1 Cor 3:15

An Evangelical answer would simply be that the firstborn were those who predated the new Covenant and the just men made perfect are those who have come to know the Gospel in the latter days (i.e. after the coming of Christ) and be justified through it.

 

[gazelam]

Hebrews 12:23 “and the spirits of just men made perfect”
Where can spirits be made perfect? Not in Heaven for they are already perfect. Not in Hell for there is only punishments there.
Where can a spirit be made perfect?

Just curious, is this question meant to be a rhetorical challenge to those denominations that do not believe in purgatory?

Couldn’t some perfecting take place in Paradise, the place where the robber being crucified with Jesus was told he would go and be with Jesus? (Luke 23:41-43) He clearly didn’t mean that the robber was going to Heaven right then since Jesus later told Mary Magdalene that he hadn’t yet ascended to His Father? (John 20:17)

And couldn’t some perfecting take place in Spirit Prison? 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus preached to those wicked spirits from the time of Noah who were in prison.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Just curious, is this question meant to be a rhetorical challenge to those denominations that do not believe in purgatory?

Couldn’t some perfecting take place in Paradise, the place where the robber being crucified with Jesus was told he would go and be with Jesus? (Luke 23:41-43) He clearly didn’t mean that the robber was going to Heaven right then since Jesus later told Mary Magdalene that he hadn’t yet ascended to His Father? (John 20:17)

And couldn’t some perfecting take place in Spirit Prison? 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus preached to those wicked spirits from the time of Noah who were in prison.

Right, the Church does not claim to know that much about purgatory.

Other than it’s likely unpleasant, but necessary.

Personally, i think likely is some sort of “prison” or state of being where God works out the flaws within us through His Son.

Not many protestants believe in it at all tbh

 

[Michael68]

Just curious, is this question meant to be a rhetorical challenge to those denominations that do not believe in purgatory?

Couldn’t some perfecting take place in Paradise, the place where the robber being crucified with Jesus was told he would go and be with Jesus? (Luke 23:41-43) He clearly didn’t mean that the robber was going to Heaven right then since Jesus later told Mary Magdalene that he hadn’t yet ascended to His Father? (John 20:17)

And couldn’t some perfecting take place in Spirit Prison? 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us that Jesus preached to those wicked spirits from the time of Noah who were in prison.

It was in our second reading this past Sunday and the phrase sort of jumped out at me. I know I have read it before, but I began to wonder about a place where spirits are made perfect. I have always been told 2 Mac has a scriptural reference to prayers for the dead but it seems to me this verse from Hebrews refers to spirits from Purgatory .

 

[Wannano]

Right, the Church does not claim to know that much about purgatory.

Other than it’s likely unpleasant, but necessary.

Personally, i think likely is some sort of “prison” or state of being where God works out the flaws within us through His Son.

Not many protestants believe in it at all tbh

Hi LA, I have a couple of questions. I understand the CC teaches that only those God has determined are ultimately going to heaven will first go to purgatory? All others will go directly to hell with no second chance?

You have stated the CC does not claim to know that much about Purgatory only that it is necessary and likely unpleasant. A place where God works out the flaws within us.

So one fact remains, either purgatory exists in some form or another or it does not exist at all. When we die, each one of us will discover whether it exists or not. What really is the importance of “believing” in purgatory while in this life? It seems to me whether I do come to belief in it or not is not a determining factor in whether or not I will go to it if it does exist. If it exists, I understand the concept to be that it is necessary for me to get worthy of entering heaven. Should not the thought of being made worthy by God Himself be exciting since we would then know we are destined for heaven? Why then do I read about the desire and methods to get out of purgatory as fast as possible? I read about the poor souls who do not have loved ones to pray them out of purgatory. How did we ever arrive at the concept that we can manipulate God into speeding up His work in someone by praying them out of purgatory? Why would God desert someone to the far corners of purgatory and let them there for eons of time just because they have no one to pay or pray them out? If I were to believe purgatory exists I would have to have faith that God is in control of my time there and He alone would determine when my soul was made worthy of entrance into heaven.

I hope you can address all my questions. I sincerely would like to know the answers.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi LA, I have a couple of questions. I understand the CC teaches that only those God has determined are ultimately going to heaven will first go to purgatory? All others will go directly to hell with no second chance?

You have stated the CC does not claim to know that much about Purgatory only that it is necessary and likely unpleasant. A place where God works out the flaws within us.

So one fact remains, either purgatory exists in some form or another or it does not exist at all. When we die, each one of us will discover whether it exists or not. What really is the importance of “believing” in purgatory while in this life? It seems to me whether I do come to belief in it or not is not a determining factor in whether or not I will go to it if it does exist. If it exists, I understand the concept to be that it is necessary for me to get worthy of entering heaven. Should not the thought of being made worthy by God Himself be exciting since we would then know we are destined for heaven? Why then do I read about the desire and methods to get out of purgatory as fast as possible? I read about the poor souls who do not have loved ones to pray them out of purgatory. How did we ever arrive at the concept that we can manipulate God into speeding up His work in someone by praying them out of purgatory? Why would God desert someone to the far corners of purgatory and let them there for eons of time just because they have no one to pay or pray them out? If I were to believe purgatory exists I would have to have faith that God is in control of my time there and He alone would determine when my soul was made worthy of entrance into heaven.

I hope you can address all my questions. I sincerely would like to know the answers.

Why pray for anyone then? Doesn’t God ultimately control everything? What is the purpose of prayer for any of our needs or needs of others, God surely knows what we or someone else needs. You need to ask yourself what the purpose of prayer is in the first place. Of course you also have to believe in the Communion of Saints for any answer to make some sense.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi LA, I have a couple of questions. I understand the CC teaches that only those God has determined are ultimately going to heaven will first go to purgatory? All others will go directly to hell with no second chance?

Hi Wannano

No, my guess is that somebody like Mother Angelica or Mother Teresa would not need any cleaning up at the hour of their death. Depending on the piety of the person, you could go straight to heaven.

But if you break covenant with Him and do not repent in a state of mortal sin, either through sacrament or in your heart before you go to confession, you go straight to hell. There are no second chances.

So one fact remains, either purgatory exists in some form or another or it does not exist at all. When we die, each one of us will discover whether it exists or not. What really is the importance of “believing” in purgatory while in this life?

Thank you for the questions I do enjoy answering to the best of my ability. A huge difference between P’s and C’s is our belief on salvation. We think it’s a process and you think it’s instantaneous(protestants in general, anyway). So if it exists like we think it does, the Catholic Church aka “Mother Church” is best for us as she nurtures our souls. Theoretically a protestant could shave some time off of his or her stay in purgation by utilizing the tools given to them by the Church. We are in purgatory right now in this walk of life and the Holy Spirit is a divine artist who can work with marble or clay…most of us are marble, unfortunately.

It seems to me whether I do come to belief in it or not is not a determining factor in whether or not I will go to it if it does exist. If it exists, I understand the concept to be that it is necessary for me to get worthy of entering heaven. Should not the thought of being made worthy by God Himself be exciting since we would then know we are destined for heaven? Why then do I read about the desire and methods to get out of purgatory as fast as possible?

TBH I will be jumping for joy in purgatory(initially anyhow) because I know it’s the threshold of heaven. I think Paul describes fire in 1 Cor 3:15 and this is how the Church describes it as well:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.** The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:**

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

But this “fire” doesn’t exactly sound like a picnic or carnival to me. So I definitely want to shorten my stay there is at all possible.

I read about the poor souls who do not have loved ones to pray them out of purgatory. How did we ever arrive at the concept that we can manipulate God into speeding up His work in someone by praying them out of purgatory?

It’s all about keys.

Matthew 18:18New International Version (NIV)

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be** loosed in heaven.

Matthew 16:19New International Version (NIV)

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be** loosed in heaven.”****

If we really believe the Words of the Lord, then we can really believe the Church can bind and loose.

And it’s all about the communion of saints ACTS 9:4. We are all connected in this mystical body and we are to help each other.

Why would God desert someone to the far corners of purgatory and let them there for eons of time just because they have no one to pay or pray them out?

Well, first of all we do not know how long people are there so it’s hard to entertain that notion. I think a better question is why do we constantly turn our backs on God when we know better? Honestly, a person you are describing spending decades in purgatory was, theoretically, a very worldly Christian. He or she very likely knew the ways of the Lord yet did not battle sin, they let sin control them and left here with a ton of baggage. They should be thrilled at the fact that heaven is even a possibility, imo.

If I were to believe purgatory exists I would have to have faith that God is in control of my time there and He alone would determine when my soul was made worthy of entrance into heaven.

Understood, let me just say that protestants sometimes at least sort of believe in it as well. My former Anglican minister describes the judgement it as a “painful day” that he is not looking forward to. I’ve heard John Hagee say that if you were a worldly Christian(wood, hay and stubble) then you are going to have a nasty stench in heaven and everybody will know about it. Luther says we are dung covered in snow so no need for purgation. And so what the Catholic Church says is that nothing unclean will enter heaven . No dirty smells and no ‘dung’ either… Revelation 21:27

Remember our Lord’s teachings on persistent prayer like the unjust judge and persistent widow. I think we can effect our happenings here in this life through praying and this continues onto the next life through the communion of saints. If a soul’s time is shortened in purgatory, it is, ultimately, still by God’s great grace and mercy.

God bless you.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Of course you also have to believe in the Communion of Saints for any answer to make some sense.

Right, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism and ONE body, NOT one body here and another in heaven. The Lord does not amputate His own body parts.

 

[JMM1957]

Hi Wannano

No, my guess is that somebody like Mother Angelica or Mother Teresa would not need any cleaning up at the hour of their death. Depending on the piety of the person, you could go straight to heaven.

But if you break covenant with Him and do not repent in a state of mortal sin, either through sacrament or in your heart before you go to confession, you go straight to hell. There are no second chances.

Thank you for the questions I do enjoy answering to the best of my ability. A huge difference between P’s and C’s is our belief on salvation. We think it’s a process and you think it’s instantaneous(protestants in general, anyway). So if it exists like we think it does, the Catholic Church aka “Mother Church” is best for us as she nurtures our souls. Theoretically a protestant could shave some time off of his or her stay in purgation by utilizing the tools given to them by the Church. We are in purgatory right now in this walk of life and the Holy Spirit is a divine artist who can work with marble or clay…most of us are marble, unfortunately.

TBH I will be jumping for joy in purgatory(initially anyhow) because I know it’s the threshold of heaven. I think Paul describes fire in 1 Cor 3:15 and this is how the Church describes it as well:

But this “fire” doesn’t exactly sound like a picnic or carnival to me. So I definitely want to shorten my stay there is at all possible.

It’s all about keys.

If we really believe the Words of the Lord, then we can really believe the Church can bind and loose.

And it’s all about the communion of saints ACTS 9:4. We are all connected in this mystical body and we are to help each other.

Well, first of all we do not know how long people are there so it’s hard to entertain that notion. I think a better question is why do we constantly turn our backs on God when we know better? Honestly, a person you are describing spending decades in purgatory was, theoretically, a very worldly Christian. He or she very likely knew the ways of the Lord yet did not battle sin, they let sin control them and left here with a ton of baggage. They should be thrilled at the fact that heaven is even a possibility, imo.

Understood, let me just say that protestants sometimes at least sort of believe in it as well. My former Anglican minister describes the judgement it as a “painful day” that he is not looking forward to. I’ve heard John Hagee say that if you were a worldly Christian(wood, hay and stubble) then you are going to have a nasty stench in heaven and everybody will know about it. Luther says we are dung covered in snow so no need for purgation. And so what the Catholic Church says is that nothing unclean will enter heaven . No dirty smells and no ‘dung’ either… Revelation 21:27

Remember our Lord’s teachings on persistent prayer like the unjust judge and persistent widow. I think we can effect our happenings here in this life through praying and this continues onto the next life through the communion of saints. If a soul’s time is shortened in purgatory, it is, ultimately, still by God’s great grace and mercy.

God bless you.

I like your answers.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I like your answers.

Thanks, friend.

 

[gazelam]

It was in our second reading this past Sunday and the phrase sort of jumped out at me.

It is my personal opinion that one of the ways the Holy Spirit guides us is by bringing phrases from scripture to our attention. Take care.

 

[Wannano]

Why pray for anyone then? Doesn’t God ultimately control everything? What is the purpose of prayer for any of our needs or needs of others, God surely knows what we or someone else needs. You need to ask yourself what the purpose of prayer is in the first place. Of course you also have to believe in the Communion of Saints for any answer to make some sense.

Unless I am misunderstanding you I find your question and comments not very conducive to dialogue.

 

[Wannano]

Hi Wannano

No, my guess is that somebody like Mother Angelica or Mother Teresa would not need any cleaning up at the hour of their death. Depending on the piety of the person, you could go straight to heaven.

But if you break covenant with Him and do not repent in a state of mortal sin, either through sacrament or in your heart before you go to confession, you go straight to hell. There are no second chances.

Thank you for the questions I do enjoy answering to the best of my ability. A huge difference between P’s and C’s is our belief on salvation. We think it’s a process and you think it’s instantaneous(protestants in general, anyway). So if it exists like we think it does, the Catholic Church aka “Mother Church” is best for us as she nurtures our souls. Theoretically a protestant could shave some time off of his or her stay in purgation by utilizing the tools given to them by the Church. We are in purgatory right now in this walk of life and the Holy Spirit is a divine artist who can work with marble or clay…most of us are marble, unfortunately.

TBH I will be jumping for joy in purgatory(initially anyhow) because I know it’s the threshold of heaven. I think Paul describes fire in 1 Cor 3:15 and this is how the Church describes it as well:

But this “fire” doesn’t exactly sound like a picnic or carnival to me. So I definitely want to shorten my stay there is at all possible.

It’s all about keys.

If we really believe the Words of the Lord, then we can really believe the Church can bind and loose.

And it’s all about the communion of saints ACTS 9:4. We are all connected in this mystical body and we are to help each other.

Well, first of all we do not know how long people are there so it’s hard to entertain that notion. I think a better question is why do we constantly turn our backs on God when we know better? Honestly, a person you are describing spending decades in purgatory was, theoretically, a very worldly Christian. He or she very likely knew the ways of the Lord yet did not battle sin, they let sin control them and left here with a ton of baggage. They should be thrilled at the fact that heaven is even a possibility, imo.

Understood, let me just say that protestants sometimes at least sort of believe in it as well. My former Anglican minister describes the judgement it as a “painful day” that he is not looking forward to. I’ve heard John Hagee say that if you were a worldly Christian(wood, hay and stubble) then you are going to have a nasty stench in heaven and everybody will know about it. Luther says we are dung covered in snow so no need for purgation. And so what the Catholic Church says is that nothing unclean will enter heaven . No dirty smells and no ‘dung’ either… Revelation 21:27

Remember our Lord’s teachings on persistent prayer like the unjust judge and persistent widow. I think we can effect our happenings here in this life through praying and this continues onto the next life through the communion of saints. If a soul’s time is shortened in purgatory, it is, ultimately, still by God’s great grace and mercy.

God bless you.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my queries. I am just getting back to this now.

I can agree with feeling like this life is purgatory and truly if we are in tune with Him there is hope for improvement or growth in our relationship with Him. Not sure why there has to be another purgatory after death though. It must be different than this life or do you feel one could mess up his time in purgatory like we do here?

I Cor 3:15 speaks to me of what I have built on the only foundation there is which is Jesus Christ. My work will be tested by fire and either I gain heavenly reward or suffer loss. It does not tell me I will be burned by fire but rather my works will either withstand the fire or will be burned. This is what thsee verses say to me.

Acts 9: 4 does not speak to me about the communion of saints. Of course I believe in the communion of saints. All who have departed this life have experienced the same plan of salvation as those alive are and those unborn will. That is if they accept His offer as individuals.

My comments about someone being in purgatory for a long time was spurred on by the comments I had read on another thread concerning purgatory. I gathered that we need our relatives and friends to get our time there shortened and the poor people with no one to help them out have to stay there longer. That makes no sense to me for if my time there is due to the cleansing needed to make me fit for heaven I would think that when I am cleansed I would be sent over when it is accomplished not later because no one was caring and not early because someone was.