Hebrews 6:4-6 exposed

[allischalmers]

Possibly the most crucial-- most misunderstood–verses in all of God’s Word are Hebrews 6:4–6, quoted here:
“It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, torenew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.”
These verses are among the most solemn in all or the Word of God. they furnish a fierce battle ground among students of theology. The hottest fight extant between religious groups rages around these verses. It is a known and established fact that a vast number of religious people believe it is possible for a blood-washed, truly born again believer to sin and backslide to the extent of being lost, beyond forgiveness, and eternally damned. Most of these dear people have their minds made up; it is futile to argue with them-- and they use these verses as proof of their doctrine.
I refuse to argue the Scriptures. I use Bible terms, not the language of the denominations. We are commanded to prove all thing (l Thess 5;21); we are clearly instructed to study, rightly dividing the Word of Truth(ll Tim. 2;15). Ireadily confess that it is not always easy to discover the perfect consistency of one scripture with another: yet we who believe the Word of God must hold fast to the unerring harmony and integrity of his infallible, indestructible, forever-settled truth. We must keep in mind that we are finite and will never fully understand all the word of God until we sit at the feet of Jesus to be taugth of him in the grand and glorious heavenly Bible Class.

Just the start!
forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[JaneFrances]

allischalmers:

I refuse to argue the Scriptures. I use Bible terms, not the language of the denominations.

I’m interested to see where you are going with this thread, Allis.

But, I must say I am slightly amused by your protestation of “using Bible terms, not the language of the denominations.” How exactly would you catagorize phrasiology such as: blood-bathed, born again believer and the term “backslider”?

 

[Eden]

allischalmers:

Possibly the most crucial-- most misunderstood–verses in all of God’s Word are Hebrews 6:4–6, quoted here:
“It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, torenew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.”
These verses are among the most solemn in all or the Word of God. they furnish a fierce battle ground among students of theology. The hottest fight extant between religious groups rages around these verses. It is a known and established fact that a vast number of religious people believe it is possible for a blood-washed, truly born again believer to sin and backslide to the extent of being lost, beyond forgiveness, and eternally damned. Most of these dear people have their minds made up; it is futile to argue with them-- and they use these verses as proof of their doctrine.
I refuse to argue the Scriptures. I use Bible terms, not the language of the denominations. We are commanded to prove all thing (l Thess 5;21); we are clearly instructed to study, rightly dividing the Word of Truth(ll Tim. 2;15). Ireadily confess that it is not always easy to discover the perfect consistency of one scripture with another: yet we who believe the Word of God must hold fast to the unerring harmony and integrity of his infallible, indestructible, forever-settled truth. We must keep in mind that we are finite and will never fully understand all the word of God until we sit at the feet of Jesus to be taugth of him in the grand and glorious heavenly Bible Class.

Just the start!
forever Baptist
allischalmers

Can you post the link to the website from which you quoted the above?

 

[Dan-Man916]

allischalmers:

We are commanded to prove all thing (l Thess 5;21);

Fine, then prove where in the bible it teaches that the bible alone is the sole rule of faith and morals.

We can start from there, because if this assertion cannot be proven, then there is no need to go any further until we establish where the truth is.
And actually, I would point you to 1 Tim 3:15 as a start.

 

[Della]

There is a vast difference between what the Bible says and what anyone one person or groups of persons (with no authority to interpret it) interprets it to mean.

Your presumptions are not “the Word of God [which] must hold fast to the unerring harmony and integrity of his infallible, indestructible, forever-settled truth.” They are what you and your denomination want the Bible to say based on your theology. You use the Bible as a proof-text and then find difficulties when it doesn’t match your erroneous interpretation based on erroneous theology.

The Bible is the Catholic Church’s book that witnesses to the truths of the Catholic Church, not a book for all and sundry to interpret however they please. Please read: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church if you truly want to understand what the Bible is, where it came from, and how it came down to us today. Then we’ll talk.

 

[whowantsumadebo]

I’m confused as to the argument set forth.

 

[Della]

whowantsumadebo:

I’m confused as to the argument set forth.

You’re not alone, so is allischalmers. :whacky:

 

[Eden]

That is not the only verse in the Bible that supports the Catholic teaching on Salvation, allischalmers. If you want to expose that one as being misinterpreted, what about all of these?

Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God’s grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13). 1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace. 2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”

 

[Eden]

Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.

Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.

Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?

Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit “expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.

Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.

Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.

 

[Eden]

Wow! I just can’t even fit all of the Scripture passages that support Catholic teaching on Salvation. Here is a link to the hundreds and hundreds of places in Scripture that support the Church teaching:

scripturecatholic.com

The passage in question is found at scripturecatholic.com and explained as well:

**Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God. **

 

[Wildgraywolf]

allischalmers:

It is a known and established fact that a vast number of religious people believe it is possible for a blood-washed, truly born again believer to sin and backslide to the extent of being lost, beyond forgiveness, and eternally damned.

Well my nephew on my wife’s side (baptist) has decided to reject Christ in favor of Hinduism of all things and my youngest sister (catholic) has decided she’s an agnostic… If my sister and nephew continue to reject Christ until they die, will not Christ reject them? If you say; "then they never were a “truly born believer”, then I think you underestimate the human capacity for self destruction. No one enters into marriage intending to commit adultery. No one agrees to employment not intending to show up for work. On Palm Sunday the Jews welcomed Christ as King and a few short days later they were shouting “crucify him! crucify him!”.

If people freely chose to become a “blood-washed, truly born again believer” then they can freely choose to reject it. Becoming Christian dosen’t disolve or incapacitate free will. I think Christ explained it in a simple, straight forward way:

***Mat 13:19 **When anyone hears the Word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown by the wayside. *

Mat 13:20* But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy. *

Mat 13:21* But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the Word, he immediately stumbles. *

Mat 13:22* And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the Word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the Word, and he becomes unfruitful. *

Mat 13:23* But that sown on the good ground is this: he who hears the Word and understands; who also bears fruit and produces one truly a hundredfold; and one sixty; and one thirty.*

 

[Wildgraywolf]

WOW Eden! That would have taken me months to come up with all that and a couple of days to type it!

 

[Mickey]

Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 (an Orthodox explanation)

Of course, Saint Paul is writing to the Hebrews, and herein he refers to those who have apostasized – that is, to those who rejected Christ and His saving power after their Baptism.
Concerning verse 4, we find reference to the Sacraments of Initiation: Baptism “once enlightened”], Chrismation “partakers of the Holy Spirit”], and the Eucharist “tasted the heavenly gift”]. Verse 5 —“Tasted the good word of God” refers to the message of the Gospel and the true doctrine of God’s People, the Church. In verse 6 we find Saint Paul stating that those to whom he is writing – remember, they are Jews – who revert to Judaism [not uncommon in apostolic times] crucify Christ once again, becoming like those who, in crucifying Christ on the Cross denied His divinity and His saving power. Such baptized individuals put themselves in a position of needing to be baptized again, although this is not possible as “once enlightened” refers to the fact that Baptism is experienced once and only once. [This is reflected in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed: “I believe in one Baptism for the remission of sins.”

To conclude, it is impossible to clearly understand the meaning of this passage from Hebrews apart from understanding the precise audience to which Saint Paul was directing his words: those Jews [but surely not all Jews] who had begun their spiritual journeys through Baptism, yet who then rejected Christ and His power. If one has not done this then these verses would not directly apply. Now, Orthodox Christianity does hold that, after one has been “born again” through Baptism, Christmation and the Eucharist, one can surely fall away or “miss the mark” of his or her calling to live as Christ lived. One can surely “de-activate,” so to speak, the grace imparted in these Sacraments; at the same time, God remains present in such persons, even if they do not recognize or acknowledge it. [It’s not as if God says, “Okay, that’s it!! You keep sinning, and you don’t seem to care about it, so I’m leaving and I’ll make sure I never return.”] God is everywhere, filling all things – including the lives of those who have failed to live in accordance with His precepts and even in those who are blatantly evil. As Christ Himself says, God allows the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the good and evil alike, and all are God’s children, His creation, worthy of being saved, even if they have yet to “work out [their] own salvation.”

Father John Matusiak (Orthodox priest)

 

[Nicene]

Just have to look at Simon Magus for the answer. He believed, was baptized, and fell away: unless of course Acts is incorrect about him believing.

Acts 8:13: Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Peter tells him he has to repent after he tried to buy the same power and fell away:

20: But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21: You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22: Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Eden]

WOW Eden! That would have taken me months to come up with all that and a couple of days to type it!

That’s not me. Scripturecatholic.com has an answer for just about every “Bible only” question you can imagine. It saves time to use that website since so often it’s “same question, different day”.

 

[allischalmers]

to Eden

the website I abtained this from is www.mybrain.com. Sorry your not allowed there.
Will continue my essay tomorrow

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Eden]

allischalmers:

to Eden

the website I abtained this from is www.mybrain.com. Sorry your not allowed there.
Will continue my essay tomorrow

forever Baptist
allischalmers

That’s funny because the same musings about Hebrews 6:4–6 that came from you is all over the internet on Baptist and other Protestant sites. Great minds think alike, I suppose.

 

[Eden]

Somehow I was allowed access to your brain and guess what I found!

This gem:

Slinkys were invented by an airplane mechanic; he was playing with engine parts and realized the possible secondary use of one of the springs.

And this:

**The characters Bert and Ernie on Sesame Street were named after Bert the cop and Ernie the taxi driver in Frank Capra’s “It’s a Wonderful Life.” **

And this:

I guess I’ve been wrong all my life, but so have billions of other people… Certainty is just an emotion. – Hal Clement

I can only conclude that all this musin’ is amusin’ . :whacky:

I encourage everyone else to visit www.mybrain.com (only, it’s not my brain, it’s his)!!!

 

[Eireann]

allischalmers:

Possibly the most crucial-- most misunderstood–verses in all of God’s Word are Hebrews 6:4–6, quoted here:
“It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, torenew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.”

We’ve discussed this at length, Here in this thread.

It first appears in post #4

 

[Fidelis]

allischalmers:

I refuse to argue the Scriptures

You mean whatever you say the Scriptures say, goes, with no other perspectives worth even hearing?

:whacky:

I’ve noticed this same propensity in your previous posts. Just like you could never bring yourself to admit your faulty reasoning in your previous thread, even in the face of overwhelming and conclusive rebuttal:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=101288#post1363748

I suggest you get your own website where you can continue your one-sided conversation forever. See if anyone signs on.
You can call it: imaselfimportantanticatholicbigot.com