Hebrews 8:4 question

  • Thread starter Thread starter AdoroTeDevote
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AdoroTeDevote

Guest
For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;

Some claim Hebrews 8:4 show Jesus wasn’t on earth (Mythicism). Can someone respond please ?
Thanks and in Christ,
+JMJ
 
In another thread, we have located the transcript of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar:

 
That comment in Hebrews 8:4 is part of a discussion which continues well into Chapter 9. They are taking it out of context.

The author is referring to why Christ ascended as opposed to staying on Earth forever, and is speaking of the Temple ministry on Earth as being but a shadow or type of the Temple ministry Jesus, as our high priest, is performing in Heaven, in the Temple not made by hands.
 
From Chapter Nine

Limitations of the Earthly Service​

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various [b]washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The Heavenly Sanctuary​

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

…

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Let’s even just go back to the original verse and then go one verse further.
4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
Click to expand...
 
AdoroTeDevote said:
For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law;

Some claim Hebrews 8:4 show Jesus wasn’t on earth (Mythicism). Can someone respond please ?
Thanks and in Christ,
Click to expand...
In the context of the passage, the author is demonstrating that the earthly temple in Jerusalem is a copy, or a shadow of the greater reality, which is being at God’s judgement seat in heaven. Jesus isn’t like the earthly priesthood which are a shadow of the reality which was fulfilled in Christ, but he is the better high priest, the eternal high priest, who is always before the Father interceding for us. The earthly priests, who are sinful men, could only approach a shadow of the Father’s presence by going into the Holy of Holies, only once per year, and after making atonement for their own sins. Jesus however, by the merit of his sinless and eternal life, and by the sacrifice of his blood is constantly before the Father, and is the complete fulfillment of the priesthood that makes atonement for our sins. This isn’t addressing Jesus earthly ministry, but what Jesus is doing NOW and ALWAYS.
 
Um, guys, the Letter of Pontius Pilate is apocryphal. If you are in a nice mood, it is ancient fanfic. Otherwise, it is a well-known ancient forgery. A more popular ancient fanfic text is the equally fake letters of Paul and Seneca.

Moving along, the point of Romans is that Jesus lived on Earth, died sacrificed willingly by Himself to Himself, on Earth practically next to the Temple, and spent His dying time being attached to a cross like a roasting Passover lamb. And then after His Resurrection, He did like the High Priest and went up to the Holy of Holies to present the sacrifice to God for the redemption of the people – by His Ascension to the actual Holy of Holies, God’s dwelling in Heaven, and by permanently presenting Himself as a perfect sacrifice that lasted forever and never needed to be repeated. (We obey Him by re-presenting His single perfect sacrifice on Earth every day and in every place as in messianic prophecy, fulfilling the need for the people to eat the sacrificed Passover Lamb by eating Him at Mass, and replacing the Passover cups of wine and the old Covenant sacrifice blood by drinking His Blood of the New Covenant.)

If Jesus had never lived on Earth as God made human, and had never died like a Paschal lamb on Earth (as God made man), He would not have redeemed us by His actions in death and Resurrection and Ascension. It would have just been playbaby nonsense, an illusion. And so we would have no hope of His Coming again, or of personal resurrection, or of fair judgment and kindly mercy.

But Jesus did do those things and did live on Earth, and we do have that hope. That is Paul’s whole argument in that passage. Taking it in a mythicist or Docetist sense is so wrongheaded as to betray a problem with reading comprehension.
 
Last edited:
Thanks… and I looked up my vague memory of “The Acts of Pilate,” “The Letters of Pilate,” etc. They are part of the “Gospel of Nicodemus”, an ancient Christian historical fanfic collection. It was pretty fun stuff, and very influential in the Middle Ages, even though known not to be Scripture and generally understood to be edifying fiction.

You can read the relevant texts in M. R. James’ book The Apocryphal New Testament, or on the Early Christian Writings site. Since James published his book in 1924, it is not on Hathitrust or archive.org, but it may be on Gutenberg Australia. His book of Old Testament apocrypha is public domain in the US, though.

I like James. He was both a great medievalist and patristics scholar, and he topped it off by writing hair-raising horror stories.
 
Last edited:
You may be right that it is apocryphal, but sometimes faith needs a boost. Tangible items such as letters can sometimes help a person to establish faith. If it helps, let it be helpful. But yes, it may not be valid by some standards.
 
I have not been clear. Somebody with a bent for fiction wrote those letters, not Pilate. Since there were plenty of early Christians in secretarial slave positions or holding imperial bureaucrat jobs, it was probably fun to compose. Picturing “what it was like” for Pilate is good for empathy and meditation, but it is not a historical account. (Of course, it may have been based on contemporary legends and gossip as well as the Gospels, too.)

There are actual imperial documents related to Christianity that are still in existence, like court transcripts of certain martyr trials. But there are also lots of fictional works by early Christians, because they were a lively and creative bunch, and because Jesus taught in parables. It is important to distinguish between them when we read apocrypha and early Church writings, because we worship Truth Himself.
 
Last edited:
You are right, early Christians did have incredible creativity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top