Hebrews 9:14 not for purgatory?

[jamil_joseph02]

Hi,

A Protestant on other forums I visited claimed there is no need for a purgatory because there already is a purification process here on earth, and that is through the blood of Christ, that is, according to Hebrews 9:13-14:

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

What do you think?

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Protestant’s conclusion is a non sequitur because nowhere does it say that this process will be completed at death.

 

[Gem]

No one is saying that Christ’s Blood does not cleanse sin - quite the contrary.

Purgatory cleanses the temporal effects of sin. It does not expiate the sin itself.

From Revelation, “nothing impure can enter heaven”. Purgatory removes any affinity we still have for sin before we are brought into the presence of the Lord.

Gem

 

[jlhargus]

Hi,

A Protestant on other forums I visited claimed there is no need for a purgatory because there already is a purification process here on earth, and that is through the blood of Christ, that is, according to Hebrews 9:13-14:

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! What do you think?

JL: Yes the blood of Christ purifies us TOTALLY thru baptism. For sins after baptism the blood is applied in confession, but a dept is due to repair the TEMPORAL damage done. For instance burning down someone’s house. In confession we are forgiven the eternal punishment, yet we must make reparation for the TEMPORAL damage. If we fail to make complete reparation on earth we will do so in purgatory.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

This is really quite easy to argue on basic philosophical grounds, without arguing minutia.

1. Ask if there is one standard for perfection. He will say yes. God is the standard.
2. Ask if he is as perfect as Jesus. He will say no.
3. Read Revelation 21:27 to him.
4. Ask if he is perfect as Jesus. He will say no. Don’t let him avoid the argument with convoluted explanations of imputed righteousness. Refer him repeatedly to the verse.
5. Ask him if, since he is saved, but he knows he is not as perfect as Jesus (one standard, see number 1), then when will he be made perfect to enter?

This is the absolute easiest, bare bones argument I have found, because every portestant innately knows he is not as perfect as Jesus. He understands this on a deep, core level of his being, and presenting this argument really drives this home in a visceral manner. Then I find that explaining this “process” as having the impurities being refined out as God draws you closer to his burning love seals the deal. They now understand purgatory.

The more learned ones will get into lengthy philosophical discussions, and this is where I exegete 1 Corinthians, go into the Greek, go into the Temple imagery mimicking the spiritual life, the cleansing bath taken by the bride after betrothing the groom but before entering the Father’s house, etc etc. For the most part, however, the more simplistic argument given above amply makes the point.

 

[melchesidechpio]

Hi,

A Protestant on other forums I visited claimed there is no need for a purgatory because there already is a purification process here on earth, and that is through the blood of Christ, that is, according to Hebrews 9:13-14:

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

What do you think?

examine this from the Haydock Bible Commentary

Ver. 13-14. For if the blood of goats, &c. Another main difference betwixt the sacrifices in the old, and that of Christ in the new law. Those imperfect carnal sacrifices could only make the priests and the people reputed clean, so that they were no longer to be treated as transgressors, and liable to punishments, prescribed and inflicted by the law: but the sacrifice of Christ has made our consciences interiorly clean, and sanctified them even in the sight of God. Having offered himself unspotted to God by the Holy Ghost, the divine Spirit of the Holy Ghost moving Christ as man to make this oblation of himself, though free from all sin, and incapable of sinning. And being this oblation, made by him, who was God as well as man, it was an oblation of infinite value, which repaired the injury done to God by sin, and redeemed mankind from the slavery of sin. (Witham) — Here we have an abstract of the passion of Jesus Christ, or of the sacrifice of the cross. We see who is the priest, and who is the victim; we see the virtue and efficacy of this sacrifice, and why it was offered; also by what signs we may know whether we partake of it, viz. if dying to sin and to the world, we live to God, and serve him in spirit and truth. Calvin makes Jesus Christ a priest and mediator, according to his divinity; but in that case Christ would be inferior to his Father, not only as man, but according to his divinity: for the priest is inferior to the God to whom he offers sacrifice, which is an expression of supreme excellence. See Dr. Kellison’s survey of the Protestant religion.

 

[jamil_joseph02]

okay, so if there is such thing as “TEMPORAL effects” of sin in us, then there are also those effects that are not temporal, isn’t it? What do we call that one?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Calvin makes Jesus Christ a priest and mediator, according to his divinity; but in that case Christ would be inferior to his Father, not only as man, but according to his divinity: for the priest is inferior to the God to whom he offers sacrifice, which is an expression of supreme excellence. See Dr. Kellison’s survey of the Protestant religion.

I’m not sure about the point of this portion of the commentary. Do we not also make Christ the priest and intermediary? What am I missing here?

 

[ByHisWounds]

Of course we are not as perfect as Christ. Even our good deeds are like filthy rags in comparison. When we stand in judgment before the Living God we will be judged guilty. Because we are. But if we have trusted Jesus as our Lord and Savior He interposed His Blood and we are seen as blameless and innocent in the eyes of the Lord. Jesus said to the thief on the cross “surely you will be in paradise with me this day.”

 

[PJM]

=jamil joseph02;7382328]Hi,

A Protestant on other forums I visited claimed there is no need for a purgatory because there already is a purification process here on earth, and that is through the blood of Christ, that is, according to Hebrews 9:13-14:

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

What do you think?

**Heb.9: 14 **“how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Your friend is WRONG and the Bible is right:thumbsup: he violates RULE NUMBER 1 IN UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORECTLY:

"NO ONE PASSAGE [SPEAKING OF UNDERSTANDING] CAN BE TRUE IF IT CONTRADICTS OTHER PASSAGES…

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

2 Peter 2: 4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment”

1 Cor. 3: 13 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

** Mt. 5: 26 **truly, "I [JESUS] say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. "… a DIRECT reference to Purgatory…

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

He also does not understand the need for perfection:

God Bless, Pat

 

[Nita]

okay, so if there is such thing as “TEMPORAL effects” of sin in us, then there are also those effects that are not temporal, isn’t it? What do we call that one?

I would call it effects that are spiritual – that is, the effects it has on our soul.
In the case of mortal sin, loss of sanctifying grace in the soul.
All sin can weaken our will in combatting future temptations, in developing virtues, … These are all spiritual effects.

 

[TimothyH]

Hi,

A Protestant on other forums I visited claimed there is no need for a purgatory because there already is a purification process here on earth,…

What do you think?

Just as Cat Herder said in the second post in this thread, nowhere in the Bible does it say that this process is completed totally on earth. Jesus himself states that there is forgiveness in “This age” and in “The age to come”

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:32)
A Heaven and Hell only theology struggles to make sense of this passage. Those in Hell can’t get forgiveness and those in Heaven don’t need forgiveness. This passage, spoken by the Lord himself, makes the most sense in a theology which contains Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.

Jesus’ words about forgivness in an age to come make the most sense when viewed in light of the doctrine of mortal and venial sin, which John clearly lays out in his first letter.

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1 John 5:16-17)
Jesu also clearly speaks about what seems to be a relative gradation of sin.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the Hell of fire. (Matthew 5:22, NRSV-CE)
St. Francis De Salle noted that only the third kind of sin leaves one open to the immediate possibility of Hell. The other two kinds of sin leave one open to God’s judgement but do not carry the immediate punishment of Hell. This is a clear reference by the Lord himself to mortal and venial sin.

Revelation 21:27 tells us that “Nothing unclean” will enter Heaven and and Hebrews 12:14 instructs us to strive for perfect holiness “Without which no one will see the Lord”. A Heaven and Hell only theology leaves no place for those who have not committed “Sin which leads to death” (have not committed mortal sin) yet may have committed “Sin which does not lead to death” (may have committed venial sin) to go. We are not “Liable to the Hell of Fire” nor are we in possession of perfect holiness and perfect cleanliness which are strict requirements for entry into Heaven.

Ask the Protestant to explain 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 to you.

If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that Person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)
Then pop some popcorn, sit back and watch the theological gymnastics start as he pulls doctrines out of thin air and makes things up as he goes along.

If all else fails, you could simply ask the Protestant if he keeps God’s commandments and bears witness to Jesus. If he answers yes, congratulate him on being one of Mary’s children (“offspring”) just like it says in Revelation 12:21. You really can’t go wrong with Mary and she has been known to touch hearts.

-Tim-