Hebrews and Catholic Priesthood

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I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary, and the idea that Mary could be Mediatrix, is mind boggling and heretical to them. To no avail explaining that the word Mediatrix means , t o mediate* with * Jesus is to no avail. I have dropped the subject on Mary for now because it is confusing the issue. They bring this up because they are familiar with the role of Mary as being co-redemptrix. Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
 
As for Hebrews…

  1. *]Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
    *]Scroll down to the section on the Mass
    *]Institution of the Mass

    Personally, I would stick only to the Mass and the priesthood of Melchizedek. I would stall the discussion on Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix by stating that neither are dogmatically defined by the Church, so it would be premature to discuss it first. I would focus the discussion on the priesthood and the Mass, and begin to explain the typology of the Eucharist.

    There is also a debate by Jimmy Akin (Catholic Answers director of Apologetics) regarding the priesthood which is top notch and worth the money if you really want to get serious about it.

    Welcome, good luck, and God Bless,
    RyanL
 
Rtbc82,
This message isn’t necissarily for you…we’re simply glad you’re here and look forward to your participation.

Everyone else interested,
If you choose to donate to Catholic Answers Forums, you will receive three free books listed in my signature - one of which is Dr. Akin’s book Did Christ Give Us Priests?

We appreciate your support!

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary
 
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Rtbc82:
I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary,

Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
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You can show them that Jesus’ sacrifice is (a) perpetual and that (b) it is on-going in heaven.

As to the first, Heb. 8:1, tells us that Jesus is our most high priest. In vs. 3, it goes on to say that the duties of the high priest is to offer sacrifice. Jesus is perpetually offering himself on our behalf to the Father. If He ceased offering sacrifice, He would cease to be High Priest.

As to the second, if you look in the book of Rev., in 5:6 it describes the lamb on the throne in heaven, “standing as if slain”. The only way that anyone can stand as if slain is if they are a living sacrifice. And since He is in heaven, then Jesus is both sacrifice and priest in the heavenly temple.
 
Hi Rtbc82, weclome. I am protestant. I would start off with an outline of the book of Hebrews to demonstrate the flow of the book. Chapter one for example demonstrates that the Son of God is superior to the angels, but angels do still exist. One of the other chapters show that Jesus is superior to Moses, but Moses is still Moses, so on. Hebrews 7, demonstrates that Jesus is superior to the earthy priests of the Temple, but those priests still existed. Expect them to say that the Mel priesthood is non-transferable which would be the strenght of their argument. Concerning the Mass, they will zero in on Hebrews 10 about the atonement being “once for all” – distinquish between event and action thereof.
 
Can anybody lend a hand?..
In one of the earliest Church councils–with all the bishops of the Church present–the prase “the Unbloody Sacrifice” was used to describe the Mass.
There was no protest–it was uttered as a matter of course–as there would have been if the Apostolic Tradition agreed with what Protestants say.

This was in the third of fourth century, I think. The council of…Chalcedon?..Ephesus?

Anybody know?

Peace.
John
 
James 5:13-15 states,
Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders (Gk presbuteros ) of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
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Note that the above passage shows a distinction between the role of the “priesthood of all believers” and that which they call the presbuteros. We maintain that there exists a priesthood of all believers AND ministerial priesthood (presbuteros) which, just like in NT times, have a role distinct from the priesthood of all believers. James 5 make no sense otherwise. If all believers were the same kind of priesthood without a distinct ministerial priesthood, then James 5:14 would say, “Is any among you sick? Then YOU pray over him because YOUR function as a Christian is exactly the same as any presbuteros.” But it doesn’t say that. It says instead, “Let him call for the presbuteros of the Church.” The word “priest” is derived from the Latin *presbyter, *which comes from the Gk *presbuteros. *This passage directs that for some functions, the priesthood of all believers are to call the ministerial priest for his prayer which heals and forgives. Catholicism asserts that this is but one example of a function reserved for the ministerial priesthood distinct from the priesthood of all believers.

He will say that his interpretation of that passage differs from yours. Yet, Protestants disagree with Protestants regarding the ministerial priesthood, which is but one example among the many things Protestants cannot seem agree upon using the “Bible alone.”

Regarding this interpretation, Catholics interpret Scripture in accord with the Christians of the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century, etc. Patristic evidence undoubtedly supports this conclusion. Protestants may differ among themselves upon this point, but that dispute seems to be yet another Protestant-Protestant dispute which means very little to the perennial teachings of historic Christianity.

After explaining this all to the Baptist scholars, you might ask them whether they “annoint with oil” in their particular Baptist tradition, and if not, why not? 😉
 
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Rtbc82:
I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary, and the idea that Mary could be Mediatrix, is mind boggling and heretical to them. To no avail explaining that the word Mediatrix means , t o mediate* with * Jesus is to no avail. I have dropped the subject on Mary for now because it is confusing the issue. They bring this up because they are familiar with the role of Mary as being co-redemptrix. Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
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The Lord instituted the Priesthood at the Last Supper. When He said “DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME” That “DO THIS” was an order and at that command He ordained the Apostles as Priests and Bishops. The Catholic Cathequism should contain enough quotes from Holy Scripture about this Sacrament. But here is an advice: Do not try to convince the Protestant, as there is more to it than meets the eye, they do not want to be converted, the reason behind it is much deeper. Tell them to read the book by Scott Hann, about Holy Mass (you can find it in his website) which contains a powerful personal testimony, and… change the subject. 👍

FIAT VOLUNTAS TUA
 
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Rtbc82:
I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary, and the idea that Mary could be Mediatrix, is mind boggling and heretical to them. To no avail explaining that the word Mediatrix means , t o mediate* with * Jesus is to no avail. I have dropped the subject on Mary for now because it is confusing the issue. They bring this up because they are familiar with the role of Mary as being co-redemptrix. Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
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Another approach you could take with your Protestant friends would be to show that, although Christ’s was described as the one/only King, Redeemer, Mediator, Shepherd, High Priest, etc., he also is shown to have shared these attributes with others.

Attribute : Only God can forgive sins.
Apostles given power: John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Attribute: Jesus is King
Apostles will judge in his kingdom: Matt 19:28: Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Attribute: Christ is the one shepherd
Peter is made a shepherd: John 21: 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.”

Attribute: Jesus is our only Redeemer and offered complete atonement for our sins
We are all made co-redeemers: Col 1: 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

All Christians share to some extent in many of the attributes of Jesus. We are all mediators, as Paul tells us to pray for each other. Mary has a unique relationship with Jesus. A relationship that raises her above all the saints and as such, she has been given a greater share of the attributes of her son than the rest of us but, like all of us, she is subject to Jesus – she in no way equal to Jesus nor does she bypass Jesus in her role as Mediatrix, co-redemptrix, or any other of her unique attributes that have been shared with her (and with us) by her son.

None of this sharing is meant to imply that Christ’s attributes were not perfect or complete, but only that in his perfect love for us he wants us all to share in his kingdom, his power and his glory.
 
Rtbc82 said:
I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary, and the idea that Mary could be Mediatrix, is mind boggling and heretical to them. To no avail explaining that the word Mediatrix means , t o mediate* with * Jesus is to no avail. I have dropped the subject on Mary for now because it is confusing the issue. They bring this up because they are familiar with the role of Mary as being co-redemptrix. Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
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Tell them about the Eucharist. Jesus, through the ministry of the priest, offers himself to the Father. The priest does not represent Jesus but he is actually taken up into the one priesthood of Christ.When food is consumed the lesser is taken up into the greater hence we are taken up into the body of Christ when we receive him in the Eucharist. He took Peter up into his priesthhod when he instituted the Church. “Upon this Rock I will build my Chrurch” The head of the Church is Jesus and he says to Peter"…whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven… " The mediation of Christ goes on until the end of time as Hebrews indicates. Sin is committed each day until the end of time as well isn,t it.
Bill
 
Rtbc82 said:
I am currently involved in a dialogue with 2 Protestant (Baptist) ministers concerning the Book of Hebrews. Both hold Ph.d.'s. I do not have the formal education that they do. Of course, their interpretation of Hebrews translates Christ as being the only priest and one mediator. To them this shows sacrifice is no longer necessary, and the idea that Mary could be Mediatrix, is mind boggling and heretical to them. To no avail explaining that the word Mediatrix means , t o mediate* with * Jesus is to no avail. I have dropped the subject on Mary for now because it is confusing the issue. They bring this up because they are familiar with the role of Mary as being co-redemptrix. Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass, and the order of priests in the Catholic Church? What books can I read to show why the Priesthood was ordained by Christ through Scripture only? Thank you.
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I would point out the necessity for there to be a new Gentile priesthood under the New Covenant for Isaiah’s prophecy to be accurate:

Is 66: 18-21 …and I am coming to gather together all nations and tongues… And *some of them also I will take for priests *and for Levites, says the LORD.

Nita
 
Rtbc82 said:
…Question; From Hebrews, where and how can I proceed to show how Scripture supports the sacrifice of the Mass…
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I recently started a thread about the Eucharist in the scriptures here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=205712

This is something to add to your quote above:

1 Corinthians 10

Quote:
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

What do you think the “one bread” is? It has to be Jesus. How could one loaf of bread feed a whole community of belivers? The one bread has to be Jesus, the one, perfect sacrifice.

What about Hebrews 10 :

Quote:
10 By the which will we are **sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ **once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

www.biblegateway.com

Catholics believe this means that the one sacrifice of Jesus lasts forever. He continues to offer that sacrifice to the Church. Jesus is the High Priest, and He continues to offer Himself, an offering surely pleasing to the Father.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
Hi Rtbc82, weclome. I am protestant. I would start off with an outline of the book of Hebrews to demonstrate the flow of the book. Chapter one for example demonstrates that the Son of God is superior to the angels, but angels do still exist. One of the other chapters show that Jesus is superior to Moses, but Moses is still Moses, so on. Hebrews 7, demonstrates that Jesus is superior to the earthy priests of the Temple, but those priests still existed. Expect them to say that the Mel priesthood is non-transferable which would be the strenght of their argument. Concerning the Mass, they will zero in on Hebrews 10 about the atonement being “once for all” – distinquish between event and action thereof.
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Excellent arguments. Jesus is certainly our One High Priest forever, but “high priest” does not necessarily equal “only priest.” It certainly didn’t in the Levitical priesthood. Btw, I’m a protestant too… maybe we are both on the wrong side of the river. 😊
 
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