Hebrews reference to Maccabees

[MarcoPolo]

Hebrews 11:35 Women received back their dead through resurrection. Some were tortured and would not accept deliverance, in order to obtain a better resurrection.

I understand this to be a reference to 2 Maccabees 7.

I was wondering if this could also be cross-referenced to:
*Daniel 3:17 If our God, whom we serve, can save us from the white-hot furnace and from your hands, O king, may he save us!*What about 2 Maccabees makes it the preferred cross-reference? I can of course see both, but is there something that would exclude Daniel 3 as a reasonable cross-reference? I am guessing it is the mention that those being tortured were offered deliverance.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

I suppose that the Daniel verse applies in a very vague sense, but it falls short in several places. We need the full context. In Daniel, Shadrack and company are thrown into a raging furnace for refusing to worship idols. However, God does not allow the fire to touch them, and they go on singing songs of praise. That doesn’t sound like torture to me.

Furthermore, when the king saw that they were not burned, he blessed God and delivered His people out of the furnace. I assume that the men accepted this deliverance, because they Daniel 3:97 states that the king gave them promotions. And it would be hard (and rather silly) to administrate from inside a furnace.

Also, seeing as how the three men survived the furnace, their women could not “received back their dead through resurrection” at that point in time. There was no immediate need for ressurection, because they were still alive.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Pax]

Maccabees speaks of the resurrection while Daniel does not. Maccabees also tells the story of a woman and her sons. The reference in Hebrews refers to women receiving their dead by resurrection. These particular aspects fit perfectly with Maccabees. Likewise, virtually every scholar believes that the passage in Hebrews 11 is a reference to Maccabees.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

I should make one additional notation.

There is only one direct reference to the “resurrection” in the OT, and that reference is in 2 Maccabees 7.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Great answers.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Elijah Resurrects A Child

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again. 22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

Elisha Resurrects A Child

2 Kings 4:32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. 33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. 34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. 35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. 36 And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.

Elisha’s Bones Resurrect A Corpse

2 Kings 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Jesus Resurrects a Ruler’s Daughter

Matt. 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler’s house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise, 24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Jesus Resurrects Lazarus

John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Many Resurrected By Jesus’ Death

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Jesus Resurrects A Widow’s Son

Luke 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

Paul Resurrects Eutychus

Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him…

Peter Resurrects Tabitha

Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

 

[DarkMark]

I should make one additional notation.

There is only one direct reference to the “resurrection” in the OT, and that reference is in 2 Maccabees 7.

But doesn’t Daniel speaks of the resurrection? Daniel 12:2: “And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.”

2 Maccabees 7 is more clearer though (actually having the word “resurrection”).

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Please don’t just look at a bare word. 2 Mac 7 doesn’t have a resurrection, it simply speaks of the promise. The other passages do have resurrections. Hebrews is not speaking of 2 Mac because it is speaking of something that actually happened receiving the dead back. In 2 Mac 7, no woman or women received their dead, instead the woman herself was also killed.

And while Daniel is most supernatural, it does not speak of a resurrection either, the men never died in the fire. They were unharmed. Since they did not lose their lives they did not get their life returned to them.

JJ

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Elijah Resurrects A Child

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again. 22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.

Elisha Resurrects A Child

2 Kings 4:32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. 33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. 34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. 35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes. 36 And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.

Elisha’s Bones Resurrect A Corpse

2 Kings 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

None of these quotes actually deals with nor mentions resurrection. The word resurrection doesn’t even appear in them. These are just instances of resuscitation (or revival, as your text prefers), not true resurrection. The people raised from the dead were brought back to life in their mortal bodies only to die again (though hopefully many years after the fact). When we attain the resurrection, however, we will live on forever in glorified, undying bodies with the Lord.

It’s the same thing for the New Testament passages, but they’re irrelevant to Pax’s argument since Old Testament is clearly specified above.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[inthecloud]

To my understanding, the belief on a body resurrection appeared late into judaism. Daniel and Maccabees were written in the same time actually, when that belief was clear in most Judaic sects. The Zadokites did not accept that belief. For them people just died.
The promise of a resurrection and/or a eternal life, to my knowledge appears into the deutercanons (Maccabees, Wisdom) and in the NT.

Elisha “resurrections” were probably medical resurrections, they Jews believed that there was no real way to know if a person was really dead. And that was right without modern medicine. So they had a mourning period before buring the dead. That have changed now. There were people like Elisha and Jesus that had the gift to raise the dead in that state.
Is not the same as “I have lived I godly life, so I will be granted a resurrection”. That is a much latter belief in judaism.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Please don’t just look at a bare word. 2 Mac 7 doesn’t have a resurrection, it simply speaks of the promise. The other passages do have resurrections. Hebrews is not speaking of 2 Mac because it is speaking of something that actually happened receiving the dead back. In 2 Mac 7, no woman or women received their dead, instead the woman herself was also killed.

And while Daniel is most supernatural, it does not speak of a resurrection either, the men never died in the fire. They were unharmed. Since they did not lose their lives they did not get their life returned to them.

JJ

Look up at my last post, it lists places in scripture where, there were ressurrections. you may even might want to look for sources outiside the OT where people also had resurrections too.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

None of these quotes actually deals with nor mentions resurrection.

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Sam, with all respect you must be blind.

The word “ressurrection” does not have to appear in them. Each passage I listed describes a ressurrection – go read them in context.

Like was pointed out by someone else, 2 Macc 7 simply has no resurrection ( past tense ) in it. It speaks of a general future resurrection of all the dead.

Frankly, when you try to force a deuticannonal reference into the New Testament like you are doing you completely discredit yourself. And, those like me whom you are likely trying to convince ignore all your references as a waste of time.

What you need to realize is that not all the OT books are quoted in the NT and even some non-scriptural books like the Assumption of Moses, Book of Enoch, pagan poets, etc., are in fact quoted in scripture.

“On other occasions (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12-13), Paul quoted from pagan poets”
apologeticspress.org/articles/2235

Bottom line, if the NT does quote a work, that does NOT automatically make it scripture.

Keep trying to force what is NOT there. We will simply mark you are unworthy of reading.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

To my understanding, the belief on a body resurrection appeared late into judaism. Daniel and Maccabees were written in the same time actually, when that belief was clear in most Judaic sects. The Zadokites did not accept that belief. For them people just died.
The promise of a resurrection and/or a eternal life, to my knowledge appears into the deutercanons (Maccabees, Wisdom) and in the NT.

Elisha “resurrections” were probably medical resurrections, they Jews believed that there was no real way to know if a person was really dead. And that was right without modern medicine. So they had a mourning period before buring the dead. That have changed now. There were people like Elisha and Jesus that had the gift to raise the dead in that state.
Is not the same as “I have lived I godly life, so I will be granted a resurrection”. That is a much latter belief in judaism.

with all respect your “understanding” is completely contray to Judaism. Elisha was not involved with simple “medical resurrections”. God performed true real Resurrections through him – talk with any Jewish person. For research look into the “banquet of the righteous”.

Isaiah 25:6
On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.

It is true that the Torah emphasizes immediate, concrete, physical rewards and punishments rather than abstract future ones. See, for example, Lev. 26:3-9 and Deut. 11:13-15. However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being “gathered to their people.” See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old Testament: Books: Philip S. Johnston

The leviathan is prominent in the haggadic literature in connection with the advent of the Messiah. Referring to Job xl. 30 (Hebr.), “and the pious ones ] shall make a banquet of it,” R. Johanan says that at the time of the resurrection a banquet will be given by God to the righteous, at which the flesh of the leviathan will be served (B. B. l.c.). Even the hunting of the leviathan will be a source of great enjoyment to the righteous. Those, says R. Judan bar Simon, who have not taken part in pagan sports will be allowed to participate in the hunting of the leviathan and of the behemoth (Lev. R. xiii. 3). Gabriel will be charged with the killing of the monster; but he will not be able to accomplish his task without the help of God, who will divide the monster with His sword. According to another haggadah, when Gabriel fails, God will order the leviathan to engage in a battle with the ox of the mountain (“shor habar”), which will result in death to both of them (B. B. 75a; Pesiḳ. p. 188b).

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=275&letter=L

I Maccabees: The First Book of the Maccabees covers the period of forty years from the accession of Antiochus (175 B.C.) to the death of Simon the Maccabee (135 B.C.)…
II Maccabees…
The time covered by this material is barely fifteen years, from the very end of the reign of Seleucus IV., whose servant was Heliodorus, to the victory of Judas over Nicanor (175-160 B.C.).

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=M&artid=18

**Isaiah 740 - 680 B.C. **
Jeremiah Jeremiah 627 - 585 B.C.
Lamentations Jeremiah 586 B.C.
Ezekiel 593-560 B.C.
Daniel 605-536 B.C.
carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Sam, with all respect you must be blind.

Dan, with all due respect to you, I could level the same charge back in your direction. Did you read the rest of my post after the first sentance?

The word “ressurrection” does not have to appear in them. Each passage I listed describes a ressurrection – go read them in context.

Because, you see, what you described is not actually resurrection. If it were a true resurrection, those people would have glorified bodies that would never die. But, it stands to reason that those revived did, in fact, die again later on. There is a difference between resurrection and resuscitation.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Hebrews 11:35 text does not demand that they be raised in their final glorified body – that is something you are reading into the text.

The references I gave are biblically defined resurrections — “raising up from one’s seat”. They are not simply something like CPR, the person is deader than dead before either Jesus or Elijah gets to them. In fact, in the case of Lazuris Jesus purposely waits to get there three or four days later to remove any doubt that he is dead.

Hebrews 11:35 uses a general greek term for ressurrection which is used in referrence to those raised in either type of body. When speaking of the glorified body, other words are used to define or describe that body “which will never die agian”.
cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=386
The glorified body is described in I cor 15. The word we translate as “ressurrection” simply means to raise up, like one is sitting up out of their seat.

Only in Mat 27:53 is another greek word used for resurrection and there they are in their glorified bodies — when the graves were opened because it is understood from Eph 4 that they go to heaven.
cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=1454

for the other guy,

Hebrews 11:19a Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead,

for both, if one has the Holy Spirit and truly understands scripture than they would know that in the minds of people in Jesus’ day the miracles of Jesus are equated to those of Elijah. If Elijah’s ressurrections were not true ressurrections in the biblical sense of the word, then neither were those of Jesus.

Matthew 16:14
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

If Elijah’s ressurrections were not true ressurrections in the biblical sense of the word, then neither were those of Jesus.

That is what I’m saying, with explanation. I’m not doubting that any of the people healed, by Elijah or Paul or all points in between, were very much dead. No pulse, no brain activity, soul put back into body by miraculous powers. Agreed. The point is one of vocabulary. Now, the Resurrection of Jesus (the Paschal Mystery we celebrate each Easter) was resurrection. The Biblical account of Lazarus’s return to life was not.

So, what do you make of the fact that none of the passages actually mention the word “resurrection,” even the New Testament ones where they used the word a good deal in other places?

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Jolly_Joe]

Look up at my last post, it lists places in scripture where, there were ressurrections. you may even might want to look for sources outiside the OT where people also had resurrections too.

Daniel, Of course you pointed out resurrections, but the orginal post did not. The subject of the thread has to do with Maccabees supposedly being referenced because supposedly it is a resurrection. It is not a resurrection, simply looks to the promise of resurrection.

Of course there are many resurrections in scripture. It’s just not the topic of this thread.

Sorry if you somehow thought that I was referring to your post. Or somehow was denying resurrection in general.

JJ