Hedonism is the only logical world view

  • Thread starter Thread starter someperson555
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Just to clarify, I’m not attacking any religion. My point was simply to say that self interest is the prime motivator for all our actions. This is in line with Christian teaching. Since according to Christianity, the ultimate pleasure is the beatific vision.
 
someperson555 said:
. Because religion goes against man’s nature by denying basic needs such as money and sex. It’s OK to eat and have sex as long as it’s not an addiction. But according to religion, even normal sexual desire is a sin which must be eliminated. .
Click to expand...
Brother,
you have a warped view of religion. Christians are not told to deny basic needs, and normal sexual desire is a good thing, not a sin.
I hope you will keep an open mind.

I’m glad Christ didn’t share your opinions. We’d be in a pickle if he just wanted to relax and enjoy life, skip all the suffering and death . . .

.
 
Viki63 said:
Brother,
you have a warped view of religion. Christians are not told to deny basic needs, and normal sexual desire is a good thing, not a sin.
I hope you will keep an open mind.

I’m glad Christ didn’t share your opinions. We’d be in a pickle if he just wanted to relax and enjoy life, skip all the suffering and death . . .

.
Click to expand...
For two thousand years Christianity has always claimed that poverty, celibacy, etc are “good”. In fact I just found this out a few weeks ago, but did you know the council of Trent actually proclaimed that celibacy us s higher state than marriage? This is because Christian/ Buddhist view that the bosy is evil, pleasure is evil. The Thing about religious law us that it claims natural things are a sin. Therefore it forces human beings to behave in an unnatural way.
Also why didn’t Jesus Just relax and save us that way? He’s omnipotent. Let me guess, because reasons, right?
 
In a sense you are right. Look at the Old Testament. There are many hedonistic aspects to it. God promises Israel abundant material benefits (long life, many children, milk and honey) if they obey the law.

At the end of the Book of Job, after all his suffering, Job is richly rewarded: more children, land and livestock.

The Book of Ecclesiastes is where we see the limits of hedonism in the Old Testament. King Solomon enjoyed more wealth and material benefits than possibly anyone in history. Peace and prosperity, countless concubines. But in the end he was left with an agonising void in his heart - everything was vanity.

Now you will say that hedonism is more than material benefits, more than peace and prosperity and many children, that its end is self-actualization. I think the message of Christianity is that “self-actualization” consists in communion with Jesus Christ.

Everything else is vanity.
 
someperson555 said:
The purpose/ of life is to be happy. I’ve known this all my life. And ever since I’ve left religion a few years ago, I’ve been starting to see reality more clearly. Mainly because I’m not afraid to contemplate anymore. So I’ve known this all my life, and I can’t stand it when pretentious people try to deny it. It is one of the few things we can know without a shadow of a doubt. The greatest good is pleasure. Of course, it’s important to note that happiness is objective. There is a heirarchy of pleasure. So society is equally wrong when it says platitudes like “oh just do what makes you happy”. As if happiness was relative or subjective. It’s not. These kind of sentiments are behind the current body positivity movement. Sayings like " oh it only matters if you FEEL beautiful ". Or " beauty us in the eye of the beholder ". But I digress, I merely used those as an analogy. Not all pleasures are equal. This is why most people cannot find true and lasting fulfillment. Happiness is objective, and species wide. A good place to start is the heirarchy of needs.
Anyone who tries to deny this is a hypocrite and illogical. Heck even in a religious world view this axiom stands. If I were to go up to the most ascetic monk, and ask him why he is torturing himself. He would reply " for theosis/ salvation of course ". But if theosis or salvation would feel like repeatedly being stung by tarantula Hawks, then you wouldn’t desire it. So regardless of your world view, the only reason we do anything is for pleasure. And self interest. I don’t know why so many people are afraid to admit this. We need to stop reciting empty platitudes and truly start searching for truth.
Click to expand...
Why an either-or philosophy of life? We, like other species, are biologically oriented to seek pleasure and avoid pain. However, we also care not only about ourselves, and are sometimes willing to sacrifice our own pleasure and happiness for that of others. It is not all or none, in my view. Judaism recognizes this in several of its ideas. Its teachings are not based on self-denial but neither are they based on self-interest alone. As in other issues, it takes the middle road.
 
You said it yourself,
It’s a WORLDVIEW.
Not God’s view.
It’s HIM we have to please. Not ourselves. God doesn’t want us to be miserable. People do that to themselves by espousing all the wrong things. The commandments are liberating, not constraining.
Want to be happily married? Don’t cheat. Respect your wife, love her, treasure your children. Don’t kill their ambition, don’t be envious, etc. etc.

But yeah, you’ve made up your mind.
I’m sure you’d resent it if I said I’ll pray fro you, but I will anyway.

Reading old councils is sometimes good, but we’ve found that folks often use these documents to hit people over the head.

Not good. Live a holy life, and see if things don’t just work out beautifully in the next.
But beware of hedonism. It just won’t make you happy. Not in the way that really matters. Eternity is a very long time to be miserable. And in severe pain.
The choice is ours.
 
someperson555 said:
The purpose/ of life is to be happy. I’ve known this all my life. And ever since I’ve left religion a few years ago, I’ve been starting to see reality more clearly. Mainly because I’m not afraid to contemplate anymore. So I’ve known this all my life, and I can’t stand it when pretentious people try to deny it. It is one of the few things we can know without a shadow of a doubt. The greatest good is pleasure. Of course, it’s important to note that happiness is objective. There is a heirarchy of pleasure. So society is equally wrong when it says platitudes like “oh just do what makes you happy”. As if happiness was relative or subjective. It’s not. These kind of sentiments are behind the current body positivity movement. Sayings like " oh it only matters if you FEEL beautiful ". Or " beauty us in the eye of the beholder ". But I digress, I merely used those as an analogy. Not all pleasures are equal. This is why most people cannot find true and lasting fulfillment. Happiness is objective, and species wide. A good place to start is the heirarchy of needs.
Anyone who tries to deny this is a hypocrite and illogical. Heck even in a religious world view this axiom stands. If I were to go up to the most ascetic monk, and ask him why he is torturing himself. He would reply " for theosis/ salvation of course ". But if theosis or salvation would feel like repeatedly being stung by tarantula Hawks, then you wouldn’t desire it. So regardless of your world view, the only reason we do anything is for pleasure. And self interest. I don’t know why so many people are afraid to admit this. We need to stop reciting empty platitudes and truly start searching for truth.
Click to expand...
Is this like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs?
 
I think you are correct in your observation that most people today act according to self-interest and a “seek pleasure, avoid pain” mentality. But that doesn’t mean it is therefore the best thing to do.

You seem to be arguing for conflicting points of view in some of what you say, though. You are arguing that hedonism is correct and religions are wrong. But then you say that Christianity is about seeking the “ultimate pleasure” of the beatific vision, and so is really the same thing is hedonism.

Hedonism is unsustainable in practice. Self-interest and pleasure seeking leads to conflict when you want something you can’t have or you don’t want to give up something you do have for the good of another. No one can live that way for very long unless they are single and inherited a great deal of wealth and don’t have to worry about having a job or taking care of a family. 😛
 
St. Augustine experienced the hedonistic lifestyle. He was unhappy until he found God. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in thee, O God”.

St. Francis gave up his riches to live for God.

Saints live for God, not rewards or pleasure. St. Mother Teresa gave her all, even when she was tempted by doubts.
 
This premise of the OP strikes me as a variation of the whole argument that even Mother Teresa only did what she did because it made her “feel good.” As though taking care of sick, destitute, and dying on the streets of Calcutta was undertaken just for that warm, fuzzy feeling you get from helping someone in need.

I think the only people who advance such arguments are those who have never tried to do what Mother Teresa did. I doubt most of us would make it a day.
 
Things of the world will never make you completely happy. But if you seek the truth above ‘pleasure’, the truth might lead to great happiness. The truth is God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top