Hell and Anihillationism

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Ive stumbled upon a theory of Hell called Anhillationism that says that there is no eternal suffering in Hell but rather, God Anihilates the body and soul out of mercy because he cannot bear to see his creation suffering forever. While that does seem comforting and maybe even a nicer view of Hell, i got to admit, it seems a little too good to be true. Proponents of this theory usually point to Matt. 10:28. Jesus talks about someone who can annihilate the body and soul in hell/gehenna. Now what on earth is he talking about here and who’s the figure he’s mentioning?
 
The RSV translation says “destroy” body and soul in hell not annihilate–don’t know if that makes any difference. Besides, Jesus said “can” destroy, not “does” destroy.

God can do whatever he pleases, but it doesn’t please him to annihilate/remove from all existence those who choose to live apart from him. We are made for eternity, not just for this life, which is why God doesn’t wipe us out of existence if we choose to live apart from him.
 
so he’d rather just watch us be tortured for ever, even if it was our own choice in the first place?
 
some things wont be understood?

please, thats a cop out

The fact of the matter is for god to condone eternal torture of a human eprson is not pro life! In fact, its extremely degrading and harmful to the human person and is anti-life! The best answer then would be to say that god is against hell and does not condone it or what the person has done and can’t do anything about it because the choice is made.

However, why can’t a person repent while in hell? If choices made in the afterlife are eternal, couldn’t the person having a change of heart to choose to god while in hell mark an eternal change over that persons previous choice to choose hell and thus overrule it and bring them to God? I know tradition speaks against this, however, since our traditions are based in scripture, could someone show me some scripture that SPECIFICALLY refutes this idea of changing ones mind in the afterlife?
 
No i think its a very big cop out. I think if Jesus talked about Hell so much and since it is a very serious topic, it is supposed to be understood by us by the help of insight of the Holy Spirit.
 
An excerpt from an excellent article on this subject:
After reading much in the New Testament about the mercy of Christ, it comes as a shock to some to learn of the severity of punishment in store for those who deliberately and obstinately defy His teaching. The merciful Christ who forgave Magdalen and the woman taken in adultery, and forgave the repentant thief, is the same Christ who spoke time and again of hell as an “unquenchable fire” (Mk. 9:44), as “everlasting fire” (Mt. 18:8), and as a “furnace of fire” (Mt. 13:42,50). God is not only infinitely merciful, but also infinitely just. His mercy is manifested during our life on earth. But he has told us clearly that at the end of this time of trial there comes a judgment of our whole life, and a reward or punishment that is final and eternal. St. Paul expressed the same to the Thessalonians:
“. . . when with flaming power He will inflict punishment on those who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Such as these will suffer the penalty of eternal ruin apart from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might on the day when He comes.” (2 Thes. 1:8,9)…
…Why must hell be eternal? Since grave sin is an outrage against God, a Divine Person of infinite dignity and majesty, man incurs thereby an infinite debt of punishment. And since finite man cannot be punished in a way that is infinite in intensity, he must be punished in a way that is* infinite in duration*.
If one has a problem with this is may be that they need to deepen their understanding of debt and justice, especially in the eternal sense. Also, one should not expect God to be infinitely merciful, if they cannot accept at the same time that he is infinitely just. By definition, ALL of God’s attributes are infinite.

Also, as the article points out, it isn’t like God has not given his creatures sufficient information and warning about this topic. If we don’t like the prospect of hell, eternal or otherwise, we would be wise to avoid it at all costs.

Hope this helps! 🙂
 
except i dont understand how anything we do can exact eternal punishment or debt. i agree that there needs to be justice and punishment… but why forever?
 
Also, one should not expect God to be infinitely merciful, if they cannot accept at the same time that he is infinitely just. By definition, ALL of God’s attributes are infinite.
Also, as the article points out, it isn’t like God has not given his creatures sufficient information and warning about this topic. If we don’t like the prospect of hell, eternal or otherwise, we would be wise to avoid it at all costs.
I spoke to a preacher once about this same subject. I don’t remember much of what he said except that he thought that hell is part of God’s mercy.
To explain, he stated that we have within us the Spirit of God that is to return to Him one day when our death occurs and we will be held accountable for the life He has given us. Those who have not lived according to God’s Will are banished to hell, which is away from His Majestic Presence because to be in this Presence would be more harsh than hell because God’s Light will reveal the shame of their selfishness forever. So to be separated from God forever would be more merciful than being with God forever in this case. Much like if a person commits a wrong against another and feels shame and remorse, it is much less painful to be away from the person than to have to face them.

Just some thoughts. The preacher wasn’t Catholic either…not that God doesn’t speak through non-Catholics. Just a different way of looking at God “sending” someone to hell.
 
except i dont understand how anything we do can exact eternal punishment or debt. i agree that there needs to be justice and punishment… but why forever?
I think the key is in the last part of my post from the article:
…Why must hell be eternal? Since grave sin is an outrage against God, a Divine Person of infinite dignity and majesty, man incurs thereby an infinite debt of punishment. And since finite man cannot be punished in a way that is infinite in intensity, he must be punished in a way that is infinite in duration.
Try this: take a little time to meditate on the infiniteness, majesty and transcendence of God the All-perfect Creator of the universe. Really take some time with this.

Then think about the ugliness of sin – not garden variety or veniel sin, but outright ugly, obstinate and willful sin that we do with full knowledge and defiance of God and without repentance. The type of sin that would send someone to hell in the first place. Then think about the above paragraph and see if it makes better sense.

Now, you might not come *completely *to terms with this issue by this exercise, but I think it might bring you a little closer.🙂
 
ahhh i think i get it now. in the spirit world, things are infinite. if our offence to god is infinite because his nature is infinite than our punishment is infinite. much in the same way on earth, when we inflict justice on each other it is in a finite manner because we live in a finite realm. do i have that right?

also, i dont agree with this in the article you posted:

While it is not possible for us to know the precise nature of the fire that torments devils and lost souls, St. Thomas Aquinas held that it was of a corporeal nature. If that is so, how can a corporal agent torture a spiritual being which is without a body? The Angelic Doctor answers that it can do so, not by its own natural power, but “as an instrument of vengeance of divine justice. For the order of divine justice demands that the soul, which by sinning subjected itself to corporeal things, should be subjected to them also in punishment.”

This fire serves as the instrument of divine justice, and by the power of God it can act directly upon spirits in a way similar to that by which the material signs of the sacraments produce their effects upon the soul. Besides its nature/ power, the fire of hell is endowed with a special efficacy by God, whereby it is able . . . to restrain spiritual beings, depriving them of their freedom and preventing them from acting where and as they desire.

this seems to indicate that the hell-fire is all about god acting out of vengeance and revenge, but this goes against jesus’s teaching against revenge as punishment (and jesus IS God) “You have heard it said, ‘an eye for an eye’…”. Either revenge is a suitable motivator for punishment or it isnt. also, this would make god out to be eternally obssessed with getting back at the people that caused infinite offence to him (and thus in an infintie state of remorse… which seems to be one of the states and effects of hell itself… where God isn’t). I can understand infinite offence and a need for infinite justice, but revenge can’t enter into it becuase it contradicts the whole infinitely forgiving nature and compassion of God. One is either motivated by revenge or compassion and forgiveness for a person. It can’t be both, that would be a contradiction! Also, how can God endow or effect or act on anything in Hell, including fire, if Hell is where God is not?
 
I’m not sure if it’s even possible for a person to be annihilated. God can’t do what’s metaphysically or logically impossible.
 
so he’d rather just watch us be tortured for ever, even if it was our own choice in the first place?

“For ever” is the language of time - Hell is not in time; it’s eternal, which means it is time-less. We have to use the language of time, because it is all that is available to us. Time is successive - one moment comes after another. AFAICS, eternity is successionless - it’s metaphysically simple. Which suggests (this is only a guess) that something like that is true of Hell.​

I find C. S. Lewis’ discussion of Hell in “The Problem of Pain” most helpful - he points out that the comparison of Hell to to the rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom in Jerusalem (from which Gehenna takes its name) emphasises the *finality *of Hell. He also gives Hell its right context, by looking at what Heaven is - because hell can’t be seen properly if it is looked at in isolation: we are made for Heaven, not for Hell; Hell is “prepared for the devil & his angels” - not for us at all; we are not supposed to go there. Which does not mean that we can’t.
 
No i think its a very big cop out. I think if Jesus talked about Hell so much and since it is a very serious topic, it is supposed to be understood by us by the help of insight of the Holy Spirit.
I agree we need to have some understanding about hell - and I do. But you’re not seeking to understand hell, you’re seeking to understand God’s mind in allowing such a thing. And because you can’t understand how He could do such a thing you want to change the teaching on hell!

What I’m saying is, you’ll have to wait for the understanding of how God is both all loving and good - and yet allows hell.

A couple of Scripture quotes for you to ponder:

Deut 29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, …

Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 3:22-25 Seek not the things that are too high for thee, and search not into things above thy ability; but the things that God hath commanded thee, think on them always, and in many of His works be not curious. For it is not necessary for thee to see with thy eyes those things that are hid. In unnecessary matters be not over curious, and in many of His works thou shalt not be inquisitive. (Douay-Rheims; parallel passage in NAB is Sirach 3:21-22)

God bless,

Nita
 
ahhh i think i get it now. in the spirit world, things are infinite. if our offence to god is infinite because his nature is infinite than our punishment is infinite. much in the same way on earth, when we inflict justice on each other it is in a finite manner because we live in a finite realm. do i have that right?
That’s exactly right! I think this understanding will help you in a lot of areas.
Also, i dont agree with this in the article you posted:
*While it is not possible for us to know the precise nature of the fire that torments devils and lost souls, St. Thomas Aquinas held that it was of a corporeal nature. If that is so, how can a corporal agent torture a spiritual being which is without a body? The Angelic Doctor answers that it can do so, not by its own natural power, but “as an instrument of vengeance of divine justice. For the order of divine justice demands that the soul, which by sinning subjected itself to corporeal things, should be subjected to them also in punishment.”
This fire serves as the instrument of divine justice, and by the power of God it can act directly upon spirits in a way similar to that by which the material signs of the sacraments produce their effects upon the soul. Besides its nature/ power, the fire of hell is endowed with a special efficacy by God, whereby it is able . . . to restrain spiritual beings, depriving them of their freedom and preventing them from acting where and as they desire.*
This seems to indicate that the hell-fire is all about God acting out of vengeance and revenge, but this goes against jesus’s teaching against revenge as punishment (and jesus IS God) “You have heard it said, ‘an eye for an eye’…”. Either revenge is a suitable motivator for punishment or it isnt. also, this would make god out to be eternally obssessed with getting back at the people that caused infinite offence to him (and thus in an infintie state of remorse… which seems to be one of the states and effects of hell itself… where God isn’t). I can understand infinite offence and a need for infinite justice, but revenge can’t enter into it becuase it contradicts the whole infinitely forgiving nature and compassion of God. One is either motivated by revenge or compassion and forgiveness for a person. It can’t be both, that would be a contradiction!
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” (Romans 12:19)

How are we to view this?

When reading spiritual writing, one must be careful in applying conventional usage of words with how they are used in these types of writing. For example, in some Catholic devotional literature, it is occasionally said that we offer “worship” to Mary, the Mother of God. Fundamentalists make a lot of hay with this, not grasping the fact that “worship” as it it used in older devotional-type writing does not mean the kind of worship we give to God alone, but merely honor and veneration.

The case is similar in the word “vengeance.” Here is a dictionary definition:
**venge·ance **
–noun 1. infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge
dictionary.reference.com/browse/vengeance
At it’s very basic and plain level, it is the infliction of hurt and injury. We often speak of “the vengeance of nature” when a tornado or other natural disaster strikes. We know of course that “nature” is incapable of anger, but we are simply speaking of the damage that such natural occurances inflict.

In God’s case, we speak of “vengeance” as the execution of justice for sins commited out of willful obstinance and blatant and unrepented disobedience to God’s clear direction and in the face of clear warning, as we discussed above. In other words, it is the carrying out of a just sentence.

Again, the key here is to keep in mind the difference between God and us. While humans are can make errors of judgment and can have other motivating factors such as hate or selfishness when they inflict deserved judgment, God, by definition, has no such clouding of his capacity or motives. As we said above, he is infinitely and perfectly merciful and just.

Does that help? 🙂
 
Not exactly. I can’t see how God, who hates to see his children suffer, could inflict suffering and pain on people. It almost seems like, “You won’t do what I say, even though I’m all good? Fine, I’m going to beat you up for it.” It just doesn’t make any sense. It makes God out to be a bully to me.
 
Not exactly. I can’t see how God, who hates to see his children suffer, could inflict suffering and pain on people. It almost seems like, “You won’t do what I say, even though I’m all good? Fine, I’m going to beat you up for it.” It just doesn’t make any sense. It makes God out to be a bully to me.
Again, we should be careful about attributing human motives to the transcendent God. The matter is one of simple justice. Even on our human level we recognize that wrongs commited cry out for some kind of punishment.

And don’t forget we are talking about those who deliberately and obstinately and unrepentantly defy His teaching. People don’t go to hell for “accidental sins” or for errors made in sincere, but uninformed, conscience. Those who die in state of grave, deliberate, unrepented sin have made their own choice against God.

As many have pointed out, those who have definitively chosen against God to this extent would not be happy with him in heaven anyway. God is simply giving us what we want.🙂
 
except i dont understand how anything we do can exact eternal punishment or debt. i agree that there needs to be justice and punishment… but why forever?
Darth Vader, Lust, and Hell:

To choose to prefer a FINITE, CREATED good to the INFINITE, UNCREATED GOOD, is to imply the finite good is superior to the infinite, which is love, and therefore insults the IMMEASURABLE diginity of love:
There are different approaches that people can take to Hell. On the right, we have hard-hearted individuals who have no problem with it because their attitude is, bad people are just plain bad and should just go to Hell. They shouldn’t be given a chance to be forgiven. They see being “born again” as a cop out. If you’ve been bad, you can’t just say I’m gonna turn around. It’s too late, what you’ve done is done, and you’re going to Hell whether you like it or not.

On the other hand, severely left-minded individuals will usually object to Hell altogether. They will say that everybody should eventually get to heaven and that a loving God would never send anyone to Hell.

So on the right, we have hard-headed individuals with hard hearts, and on the left we have soft-hearted individuals with soft heads. Authentic Catholicism is neither on the right or the left but in the center. It has the hard head of the right and the soft heart of the left.

The problem with the right position is that there is no room for mercy. But alas, without the Christian solution, we might just conclude it couldn’t be any other way. This is because what the right-positioned person is right about is that serious sin can never be atoned for by the one who has committed it, except by everlasting punishment. The person has an infinite debt. Take the following example.

Some time ago, I was reading an article about teenage girls who had lost their virginity and were regretting it. One of the girls told her story. She was at a party and was alone in one of the upstairs bedrooms, depressed that she was still a virgin. Well, in comes Paul, a guy she knows from school. He proceeds to get on top of her and have sex with her. The girl explains that she was so tired and depressed of being a virgin that she decided to just allow him to proceed. As the event unfolded, she began to hurt physically very bad from it and tried to tell him to stop, but he didn’t seem to care. He just continued, ignoring her. Once he had finished, he just got up and left.

Later, she learned that she was just one of several pit stops. Paul had been going from girl to girl that night, looking to shed the virginity of as many girls as he could. He was just out to “prove his manhood” and get some pleasure.

Now most people in this apostate culture in which we live think that it makes sense to go to Hell for things like killing or stealing, but they find it ridiculous to say that you could go to Hell for sexual sins. The reality of the situation is that this Paul had, most likely, incurred an infinite debt that night because he evidently regarded these priceless creatures as mere ends to prove his power and use for gratification. God creates every human person for the potential of everlasting love, to exist for all eternity in a state of total love, being loved by God and the saints and loving them back forever without end, and it is for this reason that every human person’s worth is immeasurable. And so if you decide to regard any such creature merely as some finite means to some selfish end, you commit an infinite insult and thereby acquire an infinite debt.

And so the person on the right correctly understands that the person guilty of serious sin has no way of paying the debt except by suffering without end. Therefore, even if God said, I’ll forgive you, who will pay the infinite debt? If the person must, then he has to go to Hell anyway, and the mercy is impractical.
However, the good news of the Gospel is that God’s love does not know any bounds, and hence His desire to have mercy knows no bounds. And the unbelievable news of the Gospel is that God has found a way to forgive serious sin and still balance the scales with justice: He pays the debt Himself! How? By becoming a man and suffering for us as a man. He creates a human body and soul and fully unites His Divine Essence with it, so that the tortures, both physical and psychological, done to Him on the cross are actually being done to Him, the infinite God, and hence have infinite worth. And so since Christ’s death on the cross has infinite merit, it atones for any number of serious sins (because infinity plus any number of infinities is still just infinity), and of course, it also atones for any number of minor sins (sins that only merit temporal punishment).

 
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