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Computer8
Guest
Does God allow people to go to Hell out of His love? And that He thinks annihilation (for example) would be worse than Hell?
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MtnDwellar
Guest
The question is interestingly phrased.
Out of His great love, God gives us free will. It is an incredible gift that was not given to any other creations on earth. It is by our own wills that we may choose Hell. Although God allows souls to go to Hell, He cannot prevent it without encroaching upon free will. We cannot have the freedom to choose, if the wrong choice is denied by God.
Regarding annihilation: I don’t think that souls can be annihilated. They are immortal.
Out of His great love, God gives us free will. It is an incredible gift that was not given to any other creations on earth. It is by our own wills that we may choose Hell. Although God allows souls to go to Hell, He cannot prevent it without encroaching upon free will. We cannot have the freedom to choose, if the wrong choice is denied by God.
Regarding annihilation: I don’t think that souls can be annihilated. They are immortal.
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SunnaB16
Guest
Yep
And they
re so full of themselves, they wouldnt want to be annihilated.Not directly related to hell as such, but: Every so often, i`ve wondered what would it be like if offered the choice of saving a certain group of very evil individuals, by accepting my own personal ceasing to exist. No thanks!!! All hypothetical, anyway.
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Shin
Guest
The more you love God the more you hate sin. The more you hate sin for the sake of the love of God, the more you see that nothing can be sufficient punishment for sin.
And so you see the justice and mercy of Hell.
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Computer8
Guest
Would you say that having an immortal soul is fortunate?
Sorry If I’m understanding the Catholic religion wrong. Sometimes I think that I would prefer to be an animal because don’t they go to nonexistence when they die?
I would like to go to nonexistence when I die but I know that humans go to either Heaven or Hell.
I would like to go to Heaven but if I ended up in Hell I’m hoping that being in Hell would be fortunate compared to being nonexistent.
Sorry If I’m understanding the Catholic religion wrong. Sometimes I think that I would prefer to be an animal because don’t they go to nonexistence when they die?
I would like to go to nonexistence when I die but I know that humans go to either Heaven or Hell.
I would like to go to Heaven but if I ended up in Hell I’m hoping that being in Hell would be fortunate compared to being nonexistent.
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John_Russell_Jr
Guest
My dear friend
Would annihilation be a punishment? I think the unfortunate unrepentant ones must undergo the infinite suffering of hell. Infinite in that its forever, The forever is in eternity though and no one understands eternity or what will happen in it. It’s not catholic teaching but an idea I have is hell may somehow change after the infinite suffering is finished. I’m open to anyone showing me this possibility in eternity does not exist. I would need to see a good explanation of eternity and what an eternal realm with no time is along with it though. Along with answers on the possibilities for change in this realm. I’m open to debate.
But annihilation is no good because God must both deter people from sin, and exercise His justice. What would the world be like if no one believed in hell? We’re seeing an example of it now and there are still heaps of hell believers of different faiths. If no hell awaited them this would become hell in a hurry. I guarantee it.
Why has God told us next to nothing about hell? It’s because its so horrific the knowledge would send us insane and to hell if we knew in my opinion. Its a place we should avoid at all costs. Whether it changes or not infinite suffering is what I think happens in there. It seems harsh God has told us next to nothing to help us grasp the sufferings of hell. I’m sure we couldn’t bear to know though. And if it changes we could not be allowed to know that either. It would lead to too much sin and evil…
God bless you:thumbsup:
John
Would annihilation be a punishment? I think the unfortunate unrepentant ones must undergo the infinite suffering of hell. Infinite in that its forever, The forever is in eternity though and no one understands eternity or what will happen in it. It’s not catholic teaching but an idea I have is hell may somehow change after the infinite suffering is finished. I’m open to anyone showing me this possibility in eternity does not exist. I would need to see a good explanation of eternity and what an eternal realm with no time is along with it though. Along with answers on the possibilities for change in this realm. I’m open to debate.
But annihilation is no good because God must both deter people from sin, and exercise His justice. What would the world be like if no one believed in hell? We’re seeing an example of it now and there are still heaps of hell believers of different faiths. If no hell awaited them this would become hell in a hurry. I guarantee it.
Why has God told us next to nothing about hell? It’s because its so horrific the knowledge would send us insane and to hell if we knew in my opinion. Its a place we should avoid at all costs. Whether it changes or not infinite suffering is what I think happens in there. It seems harsh God has told us next to nothing to help us grasp the sufferings of hell. I’m sure we couldn’t bear to know though. And if it changes we could not be allowed to know that either. It would lead to too much sin and evil…
God bless you:thumbsup:
John
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Shin
Guest
That is a good point. It does not seem to me that annihilation is punishment.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
God is Love. If annihilating people was more loving or merciful than allowing them to go to Hell, God would annihilate them, for He is perfectly loving.
It’s also worth considering that suffering is most definitely not the worst evil. In fact, in Hell, the suffering is not evil at all- the sinners are.
The worst evil is the destruction of the image, presence or life of God, for that is the only worthwhile substance in the whole created order. That which comes from God and is united with God or reveals or reflects God is worthwhile.
This presence of God is the most glorious and beautiful reality, the most righteous reality, and it gives all creation meaning. Suffering may be less tolerable to us because we prefer evil to suffering. That is a fault in our perspectives, an inability to value sufficiently what God has given us. But destruction of the image of God is worse than suffering.
To annihilate us would be to destroy the last of the image of God in us, for we are made in the image of God. Our reason, our existence, our eternal nature, our possession of bodies and souls, all these are beautiful images of God. Destroying them would eradicate all good that remains intrinsic to our design. Allowing them to become sources of our own destruction because we chose to make them so, in defiant resistance of His will, is just. And leaving us conscious, that the image of God may continue to be revealed in us, is loving, for it leaves the beauty of His creation in us not completely effaced. We may not appreciate this love as we should because we often value what we want or feel like having above the beauty and glory that really gives life and existence meaning. We would probably prefer to be annihilated than damned, but this does not mean annihilation would be better for us, for annihilation would efface the last glory and beauty God has given our souls.
It is more just that we be left with the consequences of our actions and choices, and it is also more loving, for God values what really has value more than He does what we through flawed desire wish for ourselves. Our reason, bodies, souls and eternal nature have value and spiritual dignity and beauty. To efface them with annihilation would be to destroy the last of Himself from us, would be worse than Hell’s suffering because it would make us less like God, completely separate from that which is Real, for all reality flows from Him.
We are allowed to deprive ourselves of all goods to our souls and bodies, but we are not allowed to deprive ourselves of our souls and bodies. This is one last evil God does not allow us to do ourselves.
To prefer annihilation to eternal suffering shows that our values are flawed, for it reveals how little we value what God has given us. It shows how what we want is more important to us than what really has value, which is all that is of God.
It’s also worth considering that suffering is most definitely not the worst evil. In fact, in Hell, the suffering is not evil at all- the sinners are.
The worst evil is the destruction of the image, presence or life of God, for that is the only worthwhile substance in the whole created order. That which comes from God and is united with God or reveals or reflects God is worthwhile.
This presence of God is the most glorious and beautiful reality, the most righteous reality, and it gives all creation meaning. Suffering may be less tolerable to us because we prefer evil to suffering. That is a fault in our perspectives, an inability to value sufficiently what God has given us. But destruction of the image of God is worse than suffering.
To annihilate us would be to destroy the last of the image of God in us, for we are made in the image of God. Our reason, our existence, our eternal nature, our possession of bodies and souls, all these are beautiful images of God. Destroying them would eradicate all good that remains intrinsic to our design. Allowing them to become sources of our own destruction because we chose to make them so, in defiant resistance of His will, is just. And leaving us conscious, that the image of God may continue to be revealed in us, is loving, for it leaves the beauty of His creation in us not completely effaced. We may not appreciate this love as we should because we often value what we want or feel like having above the beauty and glory that really gives life and existence meaning. We would probably prefer to be annihilated than damned, but this does not mean annihilation would be better for us, for annihilation would efface the last glory and beauty God has given our souls.
It is more just that we be left with the consequences of our actions and choices, and it is also more loving, for God values what really has value more than He does what we through flawed desire wish for ourselves. Our reason, bodies, souls and eternal nature have value and spiritual dignity and beauty. To efface them with annihilation would be to destroy the last of Himself from us, would be worse than Hell’s suffering because it would make us less like God, completely separate from that which is Real, for all reality flows from Him.
We are allowed to deprive ourselves of all goods to our souls and bodies, but we are not allowed to deprive ourselves of our souls and bodies. This is one last evil God does not allow us to do ourselves.
To prefer annihilation to eternal suffering shows that our values are flawed, for it reveals how little we value what God has given us. It shows how what we want is more important to us than what really has value, which is all that is of God.
J
JohnMPhilomena
Guest
Sounds to me like non-existance would be better than the eternal fires of hell.
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Computer8
Guest
I think annihilation would feel like what it was like before we gained consciousness.
To JohnMPhilomena,
I think Mark 14:21 can be interpreted in different ways. The true interpretation might be what you suggest it is but I don’t know that for sure. Jesus might have meant that it would have been better that Judas hadn’t experienced life with God, compared to Hell (supposing Judas went there). I’m not exactly sure what I’m trying to mean by this, I thought I understood it once but I’m having trouble getting my head around it at the moment. You might be able to understand what I mean though.
To JohnMPhilomena,
I think Mark 14:21 can be interpreted in different ways. The true interpretation might be what you suggest it is but I don’t know that for sure. Jesus might have meant that it would have been better that Judas hadn’t experienced life with God, compared to Hell (supposing Judas went there). I’m not exactly sure what I’m trying to mean by this, I thought I understood it once but I’m having trouble getting my head around it at the moment. You might be able to understand what I mean though.
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Student09
Guest
Beautiful post, Lief Erikson. Amen.
Also, I think the passage you quoted may be referring to the sin Judas commits as being worse than if he had never existed - rather than its punishment being worse. We are supposed to hate the sin itself, as God does, not just fear the punishment.
The non-existence of never having been born and the non-existence of having been born, lived, died and then annihilated, are significantly different. Also you have to consider that what may be worse for the damned from their own perspective may be better for them from God’s perspective.
Also, I think the passage you quoted may be referring to the sin Judas commits as being worse than if he had never existed - rather than its punishment being worse. We are supposed to hate the sin itself, as God does, not just fear the punishment.
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dusza
Guest
Creation is an expression of God’s love. He does not destroy any living thing that He creates. It’s just that some living things are temporal by design (animals, plants) and they simply come to pass naturally and without God’s special intervention. Others are immortal from the moment of their creation (angels, human beings) and since God’s love doesn’t change, neither does their eternal destiny.
If it sounds like heresy, I’m open to correction.
If it sounds like heresy, I’m open to correction.
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