Hell and how it makes sense

[jcrichton]

God is merciful and gracious - so there’s heaven. But God is also just - so there’s hell.
Both our goodness and evil are finite since our lives are finite, but the reward and punishment are eternal.

I think that you are missing the point.

During the persecution of the early Church, Bishops, Priests, Deacons and other Believers were put to death… many could suffer such treatment easily in a fervent Offering to God; yet, this was not always the case… many were butchered alive, their limbs, organs and other body parts were ripped from their bodies or burnt or ravaged by other means… those martyrs that suffered such torture lived through a longer period of Witnessing to Christ… it is the same with sin–those who reject God through sin and yet return to Him through the Sacrament of Reconciliation allow God’s Mercy to purify their souls/spirits; yet, those who, defiantly, remain from turning from sin force their souls/spirits to retain the corruption of sin–without purgation of sin they remain in rejection of God through eternity.

It is this rejection of God, eternal rejection, that then engages eternal Wrath, Justice.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t! Personally, I think heaven is realization, getting what you asked for. The more you put into a loving relationship with God, the more you will get out of it. Basic.

Is that not Oriental spirituality–that move towards building/erecting one’s self into an apex creature?

Jesus did not hint on any of this “self” creation of Heaven. Not once.

There are several mentions of Heaven… all proposing a Banquet, and a few demonstrating that God’s Gift is not dependent upon man’s efforts–these can be found in the parable of the sower, the workers, the virgin, the mustard seed, the offering of the poor widow, the vineyard… and specially the parable of the laborers–everyone gets God’s Gift regardless of their position (first, last)–there are no individual heavens!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[joeybaggz]

Rephrase - being given what you ask for.

 

[jcrichton]

While I concur that the more we seek God and give ourselves willingly and obediently to Him the more that the Holy Spirit shares/Reveals to us, Heaven is one single experience; yes, there might be gradations in how we are Received in God’s Heart, but no, there’s nothing man can do to “evolve”/“achieve” a greater Heaven experience:

11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (1 Corinthians 3)

While the above seems to hint that there’s a difference in Heaven–it is actually about How God’s Esteem our Offering. The Heavenly reality is actually based on Knowing God:

2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. (1 St. John 3)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vonsalza]

It is this rejection of God, eternal rejection…

It can only be an eternal rejection if the damned continue to reject God in the afterlife and their continued punishment persists so long as the rejection persists.

Presumably they probably wouldn’t persist - but the Church teaches that they’re too late at this point. As such, it’s an eternal punishment for a finite rejection.

Which is fine. It’s one of an ocean of thematic conflicts one must accept (if not harmonize) when they espouse Christianity.

 

[KatyCatholic]

Oh My! There are some great posters on here, great responses everyone, couldn’t have put it any better.

 

[stpurl]

No, it isn’t a ‘finite’ rejection.

Eternity is not a great block of time that goes on and on forever.

it is ‘outside of time’.

Like a ‘now’ that keeps on going.

A mortal sin, unrepented when ‘time’ ceases, does not cease since the soul who is rejecting God does not cease either. The sin CONTINUES in eternity.

it is an eternal REJECTION by the soul for an eternal mortal sin.

 

[Vonsalza]

No, it isn’t a ‘finite’ rejection.

As our lives are finite, it must be. We cannot endlessly reject. If we live for only 85 years, then we can only give 85 years worth of rejection. This is measurable - thus - finite.

The sin CONTINUES in eternity.

Source?

it is an eternal REJECTION by the soul for an eternal mortal sin.

Sure, but then you still can’t get around the fact that our transgressions are finite and we are punished in a non-finte manner. Incongruently, some may add.

Are you suggesting that the damned cannot feel contrite for their sins?

 

[stpurl]

I’m sorry, where is YOUR source that our rejection --or acceptance --is 'finite? Isn’t in the catechism.

Pray tell me, when we die and go to heaven, we do so because we have accepted salvation. Yes? Was that acceptance ‘finite’? How come we can have heaven endlessly for 85 years say of ‘finite acceptance’?

 

[Vonsalza]

I’m sorry, where is YOUR source that our rejection --or acceptance --is 'finite? Isn’t in the catechism.

Pray tell me, when we die and go to heaven, we do so because we have accepted salvation. Yes? Was that acceptance ‘finite’? How come we can have heaven endlessly for 85 years say of ‘finite acceptance’?

I’m not claiming to espouse Catholic teaching. Produce or begone, please.

 

[stpurl]

Excuse me, who died and left you in charge of who stays or goes?

This is apologetics, not 'non Catholic religions. You don’t like Catholic teaching? You don’t accept it? Fine, YOU make with the production that ‘justifies’ YOUR opinion.

 

[Vonsalza]

Excuse me, who died and left you in charge of who stays or goes?

This is apologetics, not 'non Catholic religions. You don’t like Catholic teaching? You don’t accept it? Fine, YOU make with the production that ‘justifies’ YOUR opinion.

Look, I get it if you don’t like the fact that there seems to be a lack of logical congruence between finite sin and non-finite punishment - as many have pointed out and will continue to point out.

As I said far earlier - believers must answer these disharmonies in some way. Yours seems to be a denial based on a technical interpretation on what “eternity” means.

I doubt many will find that convincing; but I’m glad it works for you.

I just have doubt as to whether your device here is authentic Catholic teaching or your own personal band-aid solution.

 

[stpurl]

The problem is that you, out of nowhere, postulate that sin IS finite.
Prove it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Look, I get it if you don’t like the fact that there seems to be a lack of logical congruence between finite sin and non-finite punishment - as many have pointed out and will continue to point out.

The gravity of an offense is partially determined by the person being offended. (i.e., it is considered a greater assault to punch the President than to punch some random person in a bar).

All of our sins are sins against God. God is infinite, unyielding Goodness. As such, any sin, no matter how small, is of infinite magnitude, because it is performed against the source of all goodness. Therefore, any sin, no matter how small, is deserving of infinite punishment.

I don’t expect this to change your mind, but that doesn’t make it wrong. The punishment for sin is infinite because the gravity of sin is infinite, that’s all there is to it. It’s not a particularly comforting concept; but then, nothing about Hell should be comforting, as it is the literal opposite of our entire purpose for existing.

 

[Vonsalza]

The problem is that you, out of nowhere, postulate that sin IS finite.
Prove it.

There is no concrete proof for metaphysical ideas, but I’ll give the argument that seems to trouble so many.

1. Life is finite, so what we do in the course of our lives is finite. (I presume I don’t have to source this)
2. The effect of our sin echoing upon creation eventually ends because it is annihilated and remade.

• Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
• Revelation 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

1. Yet the damned perpetually endure their damnation.

• Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
• Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
• Matthew 13:42 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The problem, again, is the lack of congruence between a sin that can only be commissioned for a limited period of time where the world it affects will eventually be remade -BUT- The punishment for that sin is still eternal.

Summarized, it seems your answer, in brief, is denial. And that’s fine. Every Christian made aware of the problem must answer it somehow.

 

[Vonsalza]

The punishment for sin is infinite because the gravity of sin is infinite…

If that were true then purgatory would never end.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

ProdglArchitect:

The punishment for sin is infinite because the gravity of sin is infinite…

If that were true then purgatory would never end.

Incorrect. It ends for the same reason we are not all just damned automatically for our first sin.

Jesus’ Sacrifice is infinitely meritorious, and is capable of covering the “cost” of our sins. We just have to be willing to accept His mercy and be purified through His sacrifice. The souls in Hell are those who would not accept this mercy and submit to God’s will. As such, in rejecting His mercy, they become subject to the full brunt of His justice, and are made to pay the full price for their sins; a.k.a, damnation.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

ProdglArchitect:

The punishment for sin is infinite because the gravity of sin is infinite…

If that were true then purgatory would never end.

Incorrect. It ends for the same reason we are not all just damned automatically for our first sin.

Then purgatory is arbitrary and capricious. By Christ’s mercy, the murderer and the child who stole the candy-bar could possibly have the same sentences.

Greater-still, then, is why God then withholds this mercy from the rest of creation…

You’re creating more problems than you’re solving, Prod.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Then purgatory is arbitrary and capricious. By Christ’s mercy, the murderer and the child who stole the candy-bar could possibly have the same sentences.

You’re creating more problems than you’re solving, Prod.

How is it arbitrary or capricious? If both the candy-bar thief and the murderer repent of the evil they have committed and turn to God, they will both receive purification in degree equivalent to their sin.

This is true of anyone who has committed any sin. If the worst mass murderer in history were to have a change of heart, recognize the evil they have committed, and repent and turn to God, they can be saved. It is only those who do not do so who are lost.

(Now, the more we sin the less likely we are to turn to God, so it is unlikely that this would happen. But no one is outside the boundaries of God’s mercy if they truly repent.)

In reply to your edit: God doesn’t withhold his mercy from teh rest of creation. Everyone is given every grace necessary for conversion and repentance. If they cooperate with those graces they can be saved. The only people who don’t get to enjoy God’s mercy are those who refuse to accept it. God will not force Himself on us, and if we do not desire His mercy He will not force us to be recipients of it.

 

[stpurl]

The effect of sin upon creation? Have you forgotten the effects upon God? He doesn’t stop, become annihilated, or remade.
And again, does a soul ‘cease’? You seem to forget that a sin is not just committed by a physical being for a ‘finite’ time but by a being who is body and SOUL, the ‘soul’ existing for INfinity. The effects on the SOUL linger as well, since souls are not annihilated or remade.

Your premise is faulty.

God is infinite. Our souls are infinite. Our actions have infinite consequences.

Plus you haven’t addressed my earlier query, obviously since we ‘finite’ beings live for 85 years (your number) that’s just 85 ‘finite’ years to ‘accept’ or ‘reject’ God (your premise).

You think that we should not be ‘punished’ for a "FINITE REJECTION’ (again, your premise opinion).

Why, then, should we be rewarded with heaven for a ‘finite acceptance’ or for a mere 85 years of ‘good behavior’ that is now over and done with?