Hell, Angels, and eternity

[rdj88]

I’m new to Catholicism (I was an atheist/agnostic for years), and there are lots of aspects of it I’m still trying to figure out.

For instance, I’m struggling to reconcile the following ideas:

• Hell is eternal because our minds cannot change after physical death
• Yet somehow our souls can be purified in purgatory
• Angels cannot change their minds because they exist outside of time
• Yet somehow at their creation they were able to make a decision whether to follow or rebel against God

The very idea that one’s mind cannot change “outside of time” seems like nonsense, both because our minds are not physical in the first place, and also because change happens in purgatory anyway - which is a state outside of time. Also, the conclusion that everyone who dies in a state of mortal sin would, if confronted by God Himself after death, still choose Hell over God’s love… It just seems so blatantly ridiculous. If I live a holy life, following all the Commandments and going to confession whenever I sin, then in a moment of doubt or weakness I fall to masturbation and die immediately after, I go to hell for eternity? That one instance trumps my entire life of striving to follow God? Or say something happens, a tragedy, and it makes me angry with God, so I have a crisis of faith and deliberately skip Mass, then die. Eternal damnation? In both cases, continuing to live would have given me the chance to repent and right my wrongs, but because I died I don’t get that opportunity? Why? As I said, the mind/soul is metaphysical anyway, so why would a physical/bodily death have any effect of how the mind operates? Why would it suddenly be unable to change anymore?

It also doesn’t make sense to say that angels are incapable of changing their minds and yet somehow have free will. The inability to change one’s mind is the very definition of determinism, is it not? And if they cannot change their minds, how was this decision to follow or reject God made? You cannot say “at the moment of their creation” because that implies a movement of time, as does the very act of making a decision. Not to mention the fact that we ask angels to do things, and action happens in time.

To say angels cannot change, you must necessarily say that they were created as they are, unchanged and unchanging, which means they aren’t and never were free and so Satan and his devils’ evil ways were not their own doing - they were made that way from the beginning by God Himself.

I’d appreciate any insight into these matters.

 

[Lysander]

So the reason angels can’t change their minds anymore has to do with the fact that they made a perfectly determined choice (to choose God or to rebel). Whereas when us humans sin we are making imperfect decisions weighted down by our sin and our concupiscence to sin. Purgatory is for people who are friends with God but still have a stain on sin on them and it needs to be purfied(purgatory isnt a permanent state, all in purgatory eventually go to Heaven). In Maccubees 2 they pray for some hebrew soliders who fought for God and died with an idol. And Saint Paul prays for a fellow Christian who has died (if there is no purgatory there would be no reason to pray for him because he would either be in Heaven or Hell).

 

[rdj88]

So the reason angels can’t change their minds anymore has to do with the fact that they made a perfectly determined choice (to choose God or to rebel). Whereas when us humans sin we are making imperfect decisions weighted down by our sin and our concupiscence to sin.

This doesn’t make sense in itself. You say sin and concupiscence are what make our decisions imperfect, and yet some angels decided to sin. Does that not imply their decisions were also imperfect?

Purgatory is for people who are friends with God but still have a stain on sin on them and it needs to be purfied(purgatory isnt a permanent state, all in purgatory eventually go to Heaven)

I’m aware of all that, my point was that purgatory changes our minds/souls, which goes against the notion that we cannot change our minds after physical death.

 

[EndTimes]

• Hell is eternal because our minds cannot change after physical death
• Yet somehow our souls can be purified in purgatory
• Angels cannot change their minds because they exist outside of time
• Yet somehow at their creation they were able to make a decision whether to follow or rebel against God

Let’s place angels upon the side burner
for the reason that our knowledge of them is far more limited than our knowledge of humans…

Humans? Our bodies die… Our spirits live…

And it could be shown from Scriptures that spirits have minds - even minds with free will…

In other words… In Pur-gatory we’re in a situation where we can will to become Pur-i-fied…

 

[Lysander]

Look into it in the Catechism and below:

Can Demons Repent?

Father John Bartunek answer the question can demons repent or not; Catechism, devils, Satan, fallen angels, more...

spiritualdirection.com

 

[rdj88]

And it could be shown from Scriptures that spirits have minds - even minds with free will

Spirits are minds, and a mind necessarily has free will.

In Pur-gatory we’re in a situation where we can will to become Pur-i-fied…

Right, where our soul/mind can become purified, which indicates a change in state. So, our minds can indeed change after death. Since this is the case, why would the state you die in determine your mind’s eternal existence in the case of hell but not in the case of purgatory?

 

[rdj88]

Look into it in the Catechism and below:

I’ve read much of the Catechism; do you have specific parts you’re referring to?

As for your link, he doesn’t answer any of the questions I raised.

 

[EndTimes]

Spirits are minds, and a mind necessarily has free will.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) EndTimes:

In Pur-gatory we’re in a situation where we can will to become Pur-i-fied…

Spirits have minds.

They’re not minds…

One’s mind is malleable in accordance to actions of One’s will

 

[Justin_Mary]

The very idea that one’s mind cannot change “outside of time” seems like nonsense

Yeah. Where did you get that from?

The way I look at it, your soul is the only thing that is eternal. From birth to death we are “forming” our souls for the eternal. If our souls are so formed “mostly” good we’ll be purged in purgatory & what remains goes on to heaven.

A soul that is mostly bad would be utterly destroyed by the purification process & cease to exist. In His Divine Mercy He allows that soul to continue in existence albeit in hell. After all it is better to be than not to be, right?

There is no changing your mind in hell because the means for forming the soul is here, in this life.

At least that’s the way I see it.

 

[Lysander]

The link gives you the parts of the catechism that gives summary on yoyr questions.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

A spirit’s will is not the same as its state of holiness. One is purified to be in a state of perfect holiness. One is NOT purified that they might change the orientation of their will.

 

[rdj88]

Yeah. Where did you get that from?

From other threads I’ve read on this forum.

A soul that is mostly bad would be utterly destroyed by the purification process & cease to exist. In His Divine Mercy He allows that soul to continue in existence albeit in hell.

I haven’t encountered this idea anywhere in my research on Catholic doctrine; are you sure this is legitimate?

There is no changing your mind in hell because the means for forming the soul is here, in this life.

But as we’ve said, the soul can be further formed in purgatory, so the implication that our souls can only be formed while alive is false.

 

[rdj88]

A spirit’s will is not the same as its state of holiness. One is purified to be in a state of perfect holiness. One is NOT purified that they might change the orientation of their will.

Can you elaborate on this, and the difference between the soul and the will?

 

[TheBomb.Com]

Well, your soul and will are two separate yet indivisible parts. For example, your will may be oriented toward God, but your spirit still carries the stain of sin. This does not mean your will is still oriented toward sin.

 

[Vico]

…
I’d appreciate any insight into these matters.

The angelic person is a pure spiritual being. Once the angelic will makes the choice for good or evil, it is complete for there is an immediate judgment. Those angels choosing good receive the Beatific Vision from which sin is never chosen.

The human person is the combination of the soul and the body. At death the two separate. The immediate judgment occurs then determining the state of hell, purgatory, or heaven. Those souls in the purgatorial state eventually loose their attachment to sins (know as temporal punishment) before receiving the Beatific Vision of the state of heaven. As with the angels, sin is never chosen from the Beatific Vision. The human body and soul are reunited at the resurrection.

The results are made known to all at the Parousia (The Second Coming of Christ). See: Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8, 9; James 5:7, 8; 2 Peter 1:16; 3:4, 12; 1 John 2:28.

 

[Justin_Mary]

I haven’t encountered this idea anywhere in my research on Catholic doctrine; are you sure this is legitimate?

Like I said, it’s my understanding. From everything that’s been said about the subject this is how my little mind understands it.

But as we’ve said, the soul can be further formed in purgatory, so the implication that our souls can only be formed while alive is false.

I don’t agree. In my understanding the soul is what it is after death. Purgatory burns away all imperfections. If there’s anything left it goes on to heaven. If there’s nothing left it ceases to exist.

I think formed is the wrong word here. Purged, the word the Church uses, is better.

 

[rdj88]

This is very helpful. So the will is something like the direction that the soul is aiming, not the soul itself. I’ve never heard it explained that way, I always thought the soul and the will were the same thing.

Alright, so even if your soul is very pure and holy, if at the last moment before you die your will changes and points away from God, you will then go to hell? Whereas if your soul is very unclean and damaged from a life of sin, but at the last moment before you die your will changes and points towards God, you will go to purgatory?

This new understanding of the soul vs. the will definitely makes the idea more internally consistent, but it still doesn’t seem just that one moment of turning away from God could result in eternal damnation if it happens right before death. I know I personally have turned away from God many times in my life, but thankfully I have always turned back towards him. The idea that someone can turn away from God momentarily and then be robbed of their chance to turn back towards him seems unjust, doesn’t it? Especially if that person lived a holy life up to that point.

 

[rdj88]

Thank you, @Vico, that’s very helpful.

Evidently I got some bad information about angels not being able to change their minds because they’re outside of time. What you said makes much more sense.

 

[Jen7]

This doesn’t make sense in itself. You say sin and concupiscence are what make our decisions imperfect,

It has to do with the strength and power of “choice” by an angel. They could choose sin & when they did it was such a well-thought-out and complete choice they won’t (can’t) ever change their minds. Perhaps another way of saying it is that angels are massively more stubborn than any human possibly could be. They literally can’t change their minds once they decide something. Except “stubborn” has a negative connotation I don’t think applies here.

 

[TK421]

@rdj88

Human beings on Earth are subject to ignorance, and forgetfulness, and new experiences, and emotional weakness, and emotional trials, and all of these different states cause us to change our minds and learn and grow and develop. Angels are instantly created with phenomenal understanding and intuition about God. So when you eliminate all of the earthly factors that make us weak, an angel has perfect control over their free will as well as extraordinary knowledge and understanding, such that there is nothing left that could ever cause them to change their mind.

It begins to work the same way with people. Basically, as a person grows, gains experience, and becomes more set in their ways and established in their beliefs, there is less and less room for new things to ever cause them to change their mind. We start off highly adaptable as children because everything is fresh and new, but over time we gain knowledge and understanding and we become a little bit more similar to the angels. Although nobody wants or enjoys being damned, they can still be in a state of absolute refusal and anger towards God. Consider the way people sometimes act at pro-choice rallies, or how they behave when the subject of religion comes up. They might become irritated and angry or unwilling to even have a rational discussion. That is because of pride and obstinacy.