Hell default condition for mankind?

[Wesrock]

Bob, have you read C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity? I recommend it.

 

[Della]

I disagree with Bob that Heaven is “horrendously difficult,” but I think it is important to stress that the road to God isn’t available apart from God reaching out to us. Left to our own devices, hell sort of is just the default for us in our fallen nature, even if we were made for Heaven.

So, isn’t it wonderful that Christ’s redemptive death and resurrection has opened the possibility for everyone to have a “portion of God’s grace?” God has reached out to us in Christ and through his Church, thanks be! That’s for those who may not know that or who may doubt it.

Maybe that Hell is not fire and brimstone for all, but certainly an existence without the beatific vision. That hell is the default path we are on apart from God seems to be a natural conclusion from the Church’s teaching on free will, predestination, and knowing that double predestination is not true.

Knowing this we evangelize, yes? Still, each person’s eternal destination is in God’s hands, and his alone. Some may latch onto some really odd ideas about God and what he expects from us, poor things, but he knows each one’s heart, intentions, and culpability. I sure you agree that we need to be as good a witness to his love as we can be, and to pray daily for the salvation of all souls. :yup:

 

[Wesrock]

I sure you agree that we need to be as good a witness to his love as we can be, and to pray daily for the salvation of all souls. :yup:

Sure do! I think I’m just trying to say that the Good News of mankind’s redemption only makes sense in the context of the “Bad News” of our fall and our own bankruptcy apart from God, which also applies to all. Otherwise we wouldn’t need redemption to begin with. The Good News is by far the greater news, of course.

 

[Della]

Sure do! I think I’m just trying to say that the Good News of mankind’s redemption only makes sense in the context of the “Bad News” of our fall and our own bankruptcy apart from God, which also applies to all. Otherwise we wouldn’t need redemption to begin with. The Good News is by far the greater news, of course.

 

[Wesrock]

Della, I suspect we don’t have a theological disagreement. I think we understood what was being asked in the original post in different, but both legitimate, ways. Or at least what was meant by the person who suggested what the “default” is, anyway.

Edit: started writing this before your thumbs up was posted.

 

[Della]

Della, I suspect we don’t have a theological disagreement. I think we understood what was being asked in the original post in different, but both legitimate, ways. Or at least what was meant by the person who suggested what the “default” is, anyway.

Edit: started writing this before your thumbs up was posted.

You’re right. No theological disagreement at all. The Catholic faith, and indeed life which it illumines and explains so well, is a balance of joy and sorrow–the joy of having Christ and the sorrow of losing him. I’m afraid most people will not have the joy of having Christ for all eternity–not because they never heard the Gospel, but because they loved their sins more than they wished to seek for God. The truly lost are those who love sin, not merely those who do sin–through human weakness/woundedness. I guess I don’t like using the term “default position of hell” to describe our condition. It’s just too narrowly focused on our wounds and not enough on how God has redeemed us. It smacks too much of Calvinism for my tastes. :ballspin:

 

[BobCatholic]

Joy comes from within not from our circumstances. That’s the plain truth of the matter. Heaven is our true home, Bob–eternity with Christ–who is “our portion and our cup.” If that isn’t reason enough to find inner peace and joy, I don’t know what will do it for you.

I’m not in “eternity with Christ” yet. I’m still here on this planet. When God activates the transporter and beams me up to heaven with him, THEN I’ll be happy.

Until then, life is the cross. Nothing else.

 

[Della]

I’m not in “eternity with Christ” yet. I’m still here on this planet. When God activates the transporter and beams me up to heaven with him, THEN I’ll be happy.

Until then, life is the cross. Nothing else.

Poor man. It’s sad that you refuse joy in your life. You have my prayers for that.

 

[Sarcelle]

So the baby in the womb who is aborted will not enjoy the beatific vision?

I think this is why abortion is very tragic. The right to life is not respected but their choice to choose God or not was also stolen from them.

If they do not enjoy the beatific vision, what state are they in then? Heaven or hell?

 

[bilop]

So the baby in the womb who is aborted will not enjoy the beatific vision?

I think this is why abortion is very tragic. The right to life is not respected but their choice to choose God or not was also stolen from them.

If they do not enjoy the beatific vision, what state are they in then? Heaven or hell?

We don’t know. Their fate has not been revealed.

We do know that they would never suffer the actual pains of hell, since they had no actual personal sins, only original sins.

Either they are given a chance to obtain attain heaven in some way unknown to us, or they reside in some place of natural happiness, but are denied the beatific vision. This place was traditionally known as Limbo Infantum.

God Bless

 

[Wesrock]

So the baby in the womb who is aborted will not enjoy the beatific vision?

I think this is why abortion is very tragic. The right to life is not respected but their choice to choose God or not was also stolen from them.

If they do not enjoy the beatific vision, what state are they in then? Heaven or hell?

Well, I’m not sure the Church has a definitive teaching on whether these children receive something akin to a baptism of desire or not. We entrust them to the Lord.

There are some thoughts that such souls may receive a natural happiness in the next life, but never be receive the Beatific Vision. Technically, anything without the beatific vision could be thought of as “hell”, though that does not have to have the connotations of punishment or even unhappiness normally associated with the word. For example, when we say Jesus descended to “Hell”, we mean Sheol or Abraham’s Bosom where the just resided before the Resurrection, not the “fiery pit” of Gehenna.

But we really don’t know.

 

[Della]

So the baby in the womb who is aborted will not enjoy the beatific vision?

And this is one reason why the idea that hell is the default fate of humankind is flawed theology. God is merciful and just, not a legalistic tyrant who has no understanding that people can die in the womb.

I think this is why abortion is very tragic. The right to life is not respected but their choice to choose God or not was also stolen from them.

Abortion is definitely tragic, but not for this reason. Infants have no choice in deciding to be baptized, whether they are aborted or not. Their parents choose baptism for them until they reach the age of accountability, which the Church determines is around seven years old.

If they do not enjoy the beatific vision, what state are they in then? Heaven or hell?

We don’t know that they don’t/can’t enjoy the beatific vision. The Church can’t say because Jesus never taught us about that issue. What the Church can say and does say is that unbaptized infants are in God’s merciful hands. Since they committed no actual sins they are innocent of that kind of sin. As for original sin, we don’t know how God treats them, but we do know that God is the master of the sacraments and can act outside of them, so we do not despair for their salvation.

 

[BobCatholic]

Poor man. It’s sad that you refuse joy in your life. You have my prayers for that.

How can I refuse something not offered or unavailable to me?

I can’t refuse a luxurious limousine, nobody offered me one, nor can I afford one.

 

[Wesrock]

In regards to babies that die before Baptism and the “default” condition of mankind, it does not mean they go to Hell, it just means they too require the merciful action of God for salvation. It’s not something they possess without God. Same as us. And we entrust them to God’s love and mercy.

 

[Della]

How can I refuse something not offered or unavailable to me?

I can’t refuse a luxurious limousine, nobody offered me one, nor can I afford one.

The joy of the Lord is available to us all, Bob, no matter our circumstances. I’m not going into this black hole of despair with you again. It’s pointless.

 

[BobCatholic]

The joy of the Lord is available to us all, Bob, no matter our circumstances.

If that were true, everyone would have it, including me. Unfortunately, the cross looms large in life and says the opposite.

 

[Della]

If that were true, everyone would have it, including me. Unfortunately, the cross looms large in life and says the opposite.

Sorry Bob, we’re not going off topic to once again try to unravel your personal angst. I’m just not doing it. :nope:

 

[BobCatholic]

Sorry Bob, we’re not going off topic to once again try to unravel your personal angst. I’m just not doing it. :nope:

That’s OK, I understand… Nobody wants to help me. People prefer to judge me harshly instead.

 

[Vico]

Everyone has a cross to carry. I have an imperfection where I cannot carry a cross with a smile on my face. I just can’t do it. I’m not a masochist.

You are not alone. Jesus Christ also suffered great agony from his entrance visit to Jerusalem through his crucifixion on Mount Calvary.

 

[BobCatholic]

You are not alone. Jesus Christ also suffered great agony from his entrance visit to Jerusalem through his crucifixion on Mount Calvary.

I can’t compare myself to Christ. He was and is perfect. I’m so imperfect, I question why I’m on this planet.