Hell Have NO Fury

[CKP0208]

HELL is NOT what MOST THINk !!

Concerning the following scriptures Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, 13:28, is a breakdown look into what the intent of the word is.

By the way it is to my opinion that these scriptures were not meant for ALL to understand but a selected few for a time then, All in a later selected time.

Is Hell called “The Lake of Fire.” ?

The lake of fire is called the lake of fire. It is never called “hell.” “Hell” is a word not found in the Greek language. And the lake of fire is not hades either. “Hades” is thrown into the lake of fire.

Since it is thrown into the lake of fire, Logic dictates a difference. Evidence of script will tell. If you throw a rock into a lake, it does not make the rock a lake. But it does make the rock consumed by the lake.

So right off the bat we have both Hades and Hell meaning something other than the “Lake of Fire”.

Another common Belief is “Hell is thought of or called outer darkness, where one cannot see his hand in front of his face.”

“Outer darkness” is not in a place called Hell. Those who are not allowed to sit down with Abraham in the Kingdom are cast into the darkness outside. Besides, how could Hell “fire” be so dark that one cannot see one’s own hand in front of his face? Did you ever see a large fire on a dark night? It throws off a lot of light and it’s easy to see your hand in front of your face. Its so important to break down the Scripture then back up and read in context as well. And remember that these Particular Scripts in Matthew Jesus spoke as parables.

“Is Hell called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.”?

This verse is not talking about Hell, hades, Gehenna, or the lake of fire, but those cast out of the Kingdom. Only the “sons of the Kingdom” are weeping and gnashing their teeth-the Jews. They rightfully should have been in the Kingdom, but were disqualified (for a time). This condition is not, however, eternal and it DOES NOT SAY its eternal. In fact revelations indicates that all will be redeemed after lessons learned and consequences completed.

Some think Hell is called a place of torment with fire.

Specifically, scripture reads that Gehenna is the place of fire…

Further the common belief is that Hell is called a place without rest.

And further the The lake of fire is the second death…

“Hell is called a place where the fire is never quenched and its worm dieth not.”

Again, Gehenna is where the fire is not quenched and the worms don’t die. It’s a burning, city garbage dump. No one quenches the fire. If someone quenched it, it would loose its useful purpose, namely to burn up the garbage, offal, and any criminals that are thrown there. The worms don’t die, because there is plenty to eat and keep them breeding. When nothing more is thrown into the fire, it will go out. It won’t need to be quenched. When the food supply runs out the worms will die. How do I know that? Because the Valley of Hinnom (south of Jerusalem) was burning in Christ’s day with many worms and now the fire is gone and the worms are gone… It is no longer used for that purpose. Jesus was using this to describe a place of position and judgment for a time not eternal. Worms are not Eternal !

Another belief is that “Hell is a place of consciousness.”

According to scriptures there is no consciousness in Hell, and there is no consciousness in hades which is translated into the English word “hell.” Ecc. 9:10 says, " … in the grave." “Grave” in this verse is translated from the Hebrew word sheol (which means the unseen or imperceptible). When an Old Testament Scripture is quoted in the New Testament, they translate sheol into hades. So is there “consciousness” in the place sheol in the O.T.? Absolutely not. " … there is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [the Hebrew translated “grave” in this verse is sheol, which is synonymous with the Gk. hades] where you go" (Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not OUR word, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answer: “His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH” (Psalm 146: 3-4).

As of Christ for Rev 9: the proper translation of Rev. 9:2 is: “And to him was given the key of the well of the submerged chaos.” The word bottomless isn’t used. Note it is not called “hell.” No people reported here. There are, locusts and demons here.

 

[Tonks40]

Hell is separation from God in eternal life. That’s pretty harsh, IMHO.

 

[CKP0208]

Hell is separation from God in eternal life. That’s pretty harsh, IMHO.

Very well said !!

 

[The_Catholic]

HELL is NOT what MOST THINk !!

Concerning the following scriptures Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, 13:28, is a breakdown look into what the intent of the word is.

By the way it is to my opinion that these scriptures were not meant for ALL to understand but a selected few for a time then, All in a later selected time.

Is Hell called “The Lake of Fire.” ?

The lake of fire is called the lake of fire. It is never called “hell.” “Hell” is a word not found in the Greek language. And the lake of fire is not hades either. “Hades” is thrown into the lake of fire.

Since it is thrown into the lake of fire, Logic dictates a difference. Evidence of script will tell. If you throw a rock into a lake, it does not make the rock a lake. But it does make the rock consumed by the lake.

So right off the bat we have both Hades and Hell meaning something other than the “Lake of Fire”.

Another common Belief is “Hell is thought of or called outer darkness, where one cannot see his hand in front of his face.”

“Outer darkness” is not in a place called Hell. Those who are not allowed to sit down with Abraham in the Kingdom are cast into the darkness outside. Besides, how could Hell “fire” be so dark that one cannot see one’s own hand in front of his face? Did you ever see a large fire on a dark night? It throws off a lot of light and it’s easy to see your hand in front of your face. Its so important to break down the Scripture then back up and read in context as well. And remember that these Particular Scripts in Matthew Jesus spoke as parables.

“Is Hell called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.”?

This verse is not talking about Hell, hades, Gehenna, or the lake of fire, but those cast out of the Kingdom. Only the “sons of the Kingdom” are weeping and gnashing their teeth-the Jews. They rightfully should have been in the Kingdom, but were disqualified (for a time). This condition is not, however, eternal and it DOES NOT SAY its eternal. In fact revelations indicates that all will be redeemed after lessons learned and consequences completed.

Some think Hell is called a place of torment with fire.

Specifically, scripture reads that Gehenna is the place of fire…

Further the common belief is that Hell is called a place without rest.

And further the The lake of fire is the second death…

“Hell is called a place where the fire is never quenched and its worm dieth not.”

Again, Gehenna is where the fire is not quenched and the worms don’t die. It’s a burning, city garbage dump. No one quenches the fire. If someone quenched it, it would loose its useful purpose, namely to burn up the garbage, offal, and any criminals that are thrown there. The worms don’t die, because there is plenty to eat and keep them breeding. When nothing more is thrown into the fire, it will go out. It won’t need to be quenched. When the food supply runs out the worms will die. How do I know that? Because the Valley of Hinnom (south of Jerusalem) was burning in Christ’s day with many worms and now the fire is gone and the worms are gone… It is no longer used for that purpose. Jesus was using this to describe a place of position and judgment for a time not eternal. Worms are not Eternal !

Another belief is that “Hell is a place of consciousness.”

According to scriptures there is no consciousness in Hell, and there is no consciousness in hades which is translated into the English word “hell.” Ecc. 9:10 says, " … in the grave." “Grave” in this verse is translated from the Hebrew word sheol (which means the unseen or imperceptible). When an Old Testament Scripture is quoted in the New Testament, they translate sheol into hades. So is there “consciousness” in the place sheol in the O.T.? Absolutely not. " … there is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [the Hebrew translated “grave” in this verse is sheol, which is synonymous with the Gk. hades] where you go" (Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not OUR word, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answer: “His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH” (Psalm 146: 3-4).

As of Christ for Rev 9: the proper translation of Rev. 9:2 is: “And to him was given the key of the well of the submerged chaos.” The word bottomless isn’t used. Note it is not called “hell.” No people reported here. There are, locusts and demons here.

So what are you trying to say? There is no Hell? Just that a soul ceases to exist?

 

[CKP0208]

So what are you trying to say? There is no Hell? Just that a soul ceases to exist?

to: The Catholic.

First I want to thank you for the response and I so appreciate your reply to this. People such as yourself exhibit courage when not affraid to explore, research or ask for Clarification with open mind…

I hope I can explain with a deeper sense of understanding. If I miss this I will make more attempts to do so.

Okay here goes:
The soul sleeps awaiting the return of Christ from the clouds and then he
awakens for the First Resurrection. The second is for all those who did not know GOD or have any influence, word, exposure or environment toward Christ or knowledge of. This happens after the 1000 yr reign. I can explain myself on this more later if you want…

Okay back to the sleep thing.
Jesus Himself also spoke of death as sleep. Speaking of a deceased girl whom He intended to raise from the dead, He told the mourners, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping” (Luke 8:52; compare Matthew 9:24).

Before He resurrected Lazarus, He told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” The disciples misunderstood, thinking Lazarus was sleeping because he was ill. “However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep” (John 11:11, 13).

The dead in Christ will be resurrected to immortal life at Jesus Christ’s return to earth, and those faithful servants who are still alive at that time will be changed from mortal to immortal. Specifically, this happens at the sounding of “the trumpet of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), called “the last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and corresponding to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. By the way this correlates to the 7 high days of the Plan of GOD and how he lays out sequence of events. (I can elaborate on this later if you wish.).

Many have asked me about the theif on the Cross. How can Christ say, “this day shall you enter paradise”. When looking into The word of GOD and his definitions of a day the scriptures state that a new day begins with darkness. As far as he is concerned his day started with darkness and for him a thousand years gone by will be a blink of an eye. It would be like WHAM. Like when I was a kid and couldnt wait for Christmas morning I wanted so bad for sleep so that all the 8-12 hrs would go by like a blink of time.

Also please, with respect , consider that Jesus did not go to paradise when he died. Remember after 3 days and nights Our beautiful Lord said to Mary “do not touch me as I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven”.

Again with much respect and hope that, this clarifies and never intend to cause any animosity…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

to: The Catholic.

First I want to thank you for the response and I so appreciate your reply to this. People such as yourself exhibit courage when not affraid to explore, research or ask for Clarification with open mind…

I hope I can explain with a deeper sense of understanding. If I miss this I will make more attempts to do so.

Okay here goes:
The soul sleeps awaiting the return of Christ from the clouds and then he
awakens for the First Resurrection. The second is for all those who did not know GOD or have any influence, word, exposure or environment toward Christ or knowledge of. This happens after the 1000 yr reign. I can explain myself on this more later if you want…

Okay back to the sleep thing.
Jesus Himself also spoke of death as sleep. Speaking of a deceased girl whom He intended to raise from the dead, He told the mourners, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping” (Luke 8:52; compare Matthew 9:24).

Before He resurrected Lazarus, He told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” The disciples misunderstood, thinking Lazarus was sleeping because he was ill. “However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep” (John 11:11, 13).

The dead in Christ will be resurrected to immortal life at Jesus Christ’s return to earth, and those faithful servants who are still alive at that time will be changed from mortal to immortal. Specifically, this happens at the sounding of “the trumpet of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), called “the last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and corresponding to the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. By the way this correlates to the 7 high days of the Plan of GOD and how he lays out sequence of events. (I can elaborate on this later if you wish.).

Many have asked me about the theif on the Cross. How can Christ say, “this day shall you enter paradise”. When looking into The word of GOD and his definitions of a day the scriptures state that a new day begins with darkness. As far as he is concerned his day started with darkness and for him a thousand years gone by will be a blink of an eye. It would be like WHAM. Like when I was a kid and couldnt wait for Christmas morning I wanted so bad for sleep so that all the 8-12 hrs would go by like a blink of time.

Also please, with respect , consider that Jesus did not go to paradise when he died. Remember after 3 days and nights Our beautiful Lord said to Mary “do not touch me as I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven”.

Again with much respect and hope that, this clarifies and never intend to cause any animosity…

The next question would then be, If at death we sleep till the resurrection, why were Mose and Elijah not asleep at the Transfiguration? Did Jesus just wake them up then they went back to sleep? Are some sleeping but not others? Also in the parable that Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus form were would he draw such a analogy if all the dead were just sleeping?

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

I’ve been reading this book called “The Dogma of Hell…” and the second part of the book is how to avoid Hell.

You may want to read some of the stuff in this book.

Your post helped me remember one of those baptismal promises – “…to reject the glamor of evil…”

Thank you for your post and many blessings.

Just my two cents.

 

[CKP0208]

The next question would then be, If at death we sleep till the resurrection, why were Mose and Elijah not asleep at the Transfiguration? Did Jesus just wake them up then they went back to sleep? Are some sleeping but not others? Also in the parable that Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus form were would he draw such a analogy if all the dead were just sleeping?

To: oneGODoneCHURCH.

What a blessing that you all ask such insightful questions ! Its an honor to be writing to you and again I only hope I can clarify myself in this. I write with conviction but with deep respect to you and your thoughts… Please forgive if it comes off as any kind of arrogance.

For Me, Sometimes it helps to also read what something Doesnt Say as well as what it says…

what these verses say?
Genesis 5:24 tells us that “Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.” Hebrews 11:5 adds: “By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, ‘and was not found, because God had taken him’; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”

Neither scripture tells us how or where God took him, only that He did. Did God take Enoch to heaven? If so then why would Jesus Himself say that “no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man …” These are Jesus’s own words (Whom I lay all my hope and dreams on).

Further, Hebrews 11 lists many faithful men and women of the Bible (including Enoch) but concludes that “all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, **did not receive the promise **…” (verse 39). Obviously, then, Enoch neither ascended to heaven nor received
the promised eternal life.

So what did happen to Enoch? Genesis 5:23 points that Enoch ultimately did die: “So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.” He lived 365 years and stipulates no more.

To me this says He isn’t still alive and walking with God. The expression “all the days” is used of eight other people in this same chapter-all of whom obviously died. I want to let the bible interpret itself and see where “all the days” is used and how.

Hebrews 11:5 tells us Enoch was “taken away.” The same Greek word refers to the remains of the patriarch Jacob being “carried” from Egypt (where he had died) to Shechem, where he was later buried.

The Scriptures simply do not reveal all the details of what happened to Enoch. They do record, however, that Elijah, in a similar manner, was physically removed by a fiery chariot only to die later (last subject). Also, God instructed Moses to go to the top of Mount Nebo to die-apparently alone (Deuteronomy 32:48-50).

Then God buried his body (Mosses) where it would not be found (Deuteronomy 34:5-6), possibly to prevent the grave site from being made into an idolatrous shrine.

Something similar might have happened to Enoch. Why? In scriptures, take a look at how Satan wanted the body of Moses. There was an argument that ensued between he and Michael, as in Jude 1:9 “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said”, “The Lord rebuke you!” .

Again this may be due to Satan trying to use these Patriarch’s bodies to cause Idolatry.

And Now Elijah Remember there are 3 Heavens Created by GOD

“Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (verse 11). Elijah was now gone. The former followers and students of Elijah now knew to look to Elisha as their new leader. “Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, ‘The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha’” (2 Kings 2:15).

Many Bible scholars and other readers assume that Elijah at that point was made immortal and taken to the heaven where God resides. The sons of the prophets seem to know otherwise. They knew the whirlwind had simply removed Elijah to another location on earth. They exclaimed to Elisha: “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley” (2 Kings 2:16).

The disciples were concerned for Elijah’s safety, so they sent out a party of 50 men to search for him. The 50 searched for three days but did not find him (2 Kings 2:17). Okay maybe he was taken to the 3rd heaven. But permit me please to explain further.

Another passage proves conclusively Elijah did not go to heaven. The Bible records that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, several years after he was removed in the whirlwind.

Notice the sequence of events recorded for us in the Bible. Elijah’s last recorded and dated act occurred during the reign of the Israelite king Ahaziah when Elijah told the king he would die for his sins (2 Kings 1:3, 17). Ahaziah’s reign lasted only about a year ca. 850 B.C.

Elijah’s removal and replacement by Elisha is then recorded in the next chapter, 2 Kings 2. The story continues with incidents from Elisha’s life, including an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kings 3:11-14). Several years later Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat, succeeded his father as king of Judah ca. 845 B.C. (2 Kings 8:16).

Jehoram proved to be a wicked king, leading the nation of Judah in rebellion against God’s commandments. A few years into Jehoram’s reign, and several years after Elijah’s removal, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram warning him of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.

This letter is evidence that proves the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha.

God had chosen Elisha to succeed **Elijah **as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years-as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates.

The Bible tells us nothing more about Elijah after he wrote the letter. But he eventually died, since Hebrews 9:27 tells us “it is appointed for men to die once.” Elijah, like the other prophets and righteous men of the Old Testament, died in faith, not having received the eternal life God had promised as stated again in Hebrews 11:39, NIV.

As these passages show, a careful reading of the Scriptures shows that Elijah’s miraculous removal in a fiery chariot involved transporting him to another location in the area, but not to eternal life in heaven.

Now this isnt important to eternal salvation but, for me it is important for scriptural understanding. With this and the knowledge of other issues it helps me immensly to understand what GOD is doing and brings me joy of his thoughts.

I hope you dont think Im trying to push or shove anything down. Just sharing and hope for the Glory and edification of you and many others.

 

[elvisman]

HELL is NOT what MOST THINk !!

Concerning the following scriptures Matthew 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, 13:28, is a breakdown look into what the intent of the word is.

By the way it is to my opinion that these scriptures were not meant for ALL to understand but a selected few for a time then, All in a later selected time.

Is Hell called “The Lake of Fire.” ?

The lake of fire is called the lake of fire. It is never called “hell.” “Hell” is a word not found in the Greek language. And the lake of fire is not hades either. “Hades” is thrown into the lake of fire.

Since it is thrown into the lake of fire, Logic dictates a difference. Evidence of script will tell. If you throw a rock into a lake, it does not make the rock a lake. But it does make the rock consumed by the lake.

So right off the bat we have both Hades and Hell meaning something other than the “Lake of Fire”.

Another common Belief is “Hell is thought of or called outer darkness, where one cannot see his hand in front of his face.”

“Is Hell called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.”?

This verse is not talking about Hell, hades, Gehenna, or the lake of fire, but those cast out of the Kingdom. Only the “sons of the Kingdom” are weeping and gnashing their teeth-the Jews. They rightfully should have been in the Kingdom, but were disqualified (for a time). This condition is not, however, eternal and it DOES NOT SAY its eternal. In fact revelations indicates that all will be redeemed after lessons learned and consequences completed.

Some think Hell is called a place of torment with fire.

Specifically, scripture reads that Gehenna is the place of fire.

Your right – Jesus was not in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. The Jews considered part of a day as a day. When Scripture says that Jesus was in the Tomb for 3 days, it means Friday night (1 day), Saturday (1 day) and Sunday morning (1 day).

Here we go again with the wistful dream that hell is not a place of suffering. Consider the following passages:
**(Is. 33:11, 14) - *****Who of us can live with the consuming fire? Who of us can live with the everlasting flames?’" ***

**Mark 9:47–48 – **“. . . the fire is not quenched."

**Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46 – ****“ETERNAL fire” and “ETERNAL punishment”

**Luke 3:16-17 – **“UNQUENCHABLE fire”

**(2 Thess. 1:6-9) – “ETERNAL ruin and separated **from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power.”

As for the foolish and false teaching of “soul sleep”:
**(Matt. 26:24) – *****“***It would have been better for that man (Judas) if he had not been born.” Does this sound like there is no suffering?

As for the false teaching of soul sleep - the Bible debunks it:**

***Revelation 6:9-10 -*****The Bible is says that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. This takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world and before the Judgment. The martyrs, even though “dead”, have their own memories and remember that they were martyred

***Luke 16:19-31 -***Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are alive and very much aware, despite the death of their bodies. This all takes place before the resurrection of their bodies.

1 Peter 3:18-19 –*** Jesus preached to the souls in “prison*”. They weren’t “asleep”.**

**2 Corinthians 5:6,8-9 -If our soul dies when our body dies - how can we be “absent” from the body? **

***Genesis 35:18 -***Rachel died and her soul departed. It didn’t "fall asleep".

***Revelation 20:4 -***Note that John saw only the souls of the martyrs.

Jude 1:7*** - T******hat they are presently* suffering, and thus not unconscious.**

Matthew 17:1,3-4*** – The transfiguration CLEARLY* shows that Moses and Elijah were not “asleep”.**

 

[CKP0208]

To: elvisman I love you brother…

With great respect to you and your perspective, with permission may I break this down point by point? I will assume you will permit me as this site promotes.

In (Is. 33:11, 14 NKJV) 11 You shall conceive chaff, you shall bring forth stubble;
Your breath, as fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be like the burnings of lime; Likethorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done; And you who are near, acknowledge My might.” 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid;
Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”

For me and How it shows, What doesnt this say?. It Does say and everlasting fire but not an everlasting torment. If only use this scripture you have to assume eternal torment. but again I appreciate you to let me continue.

Mark 9:47–48 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where ‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Remeber too that Christ talked in many parables.
Christ is talking about a consuming fire and in reference to Gehenna is where the worms outsid the dump would never die because of the constant decomposing bodies. Outside the city of Jerusalem this dump site was always feeding these worms or maggots.

Matt. 25:31-34, 41, 46 – “ETERNAL fire” and “ETERNAL punishment”

this seems to point to an eternal torment for humans but the eternal end is a cease to exist… Why can I say that? Because you can only find eternal torment for humans just eternal death (no existence).

Luke 3:16-17 – “UNQUENCHABLE fire

this is absolutely correct. No man can put this fire out. Why? And Again Please read with all respect and honor to you, because this is the fire that will devour the earth and prepare it for the new earth new jerusalem. No man can quench it…

Revelation 6:9-10 -The Bible is says that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. This takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world and before the Judgment. The martyrs, even though “dead”, have their own memories and remember that they were martyred

this is a vision, but notice he tells them to wait and it doesnt say when the cry took place. Also remember that the prayers of the saints are put into bowls to be poured out. These cries and prayers are kept within GOD’s heart and Heaven.

1 Peter 3:18-19 – Jesus preached to the souls in “prison”. They weren’t “asleep”.

This is a clarification of the spirit in whom the power was given to ressurect our Christ… This spirit also spoke to those in the Days of Noah.

Genesis 35:18 -Rachel died and her soul departed. It didn’t “fall asleep”.

Yes the soul does part and it is in memory of the Father. How? I dont know but there are so many verses on soul sleep it points to the same as when your son or daughter can sleep safe and sound kept in your house.

Remember this passage about “consciousness” in the place sheol in the O.T. " … there is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [the Hebrew translated “grave” in this verse is sheol, which is synonymous with the Gk. hades] where you go". this is where You and I go.

(Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not my words, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answers in scriptuer this very question: “His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH” (Psalm 146: 3-4).

Matthew 17:1,3-4 – The transfiguration CLEARLY shows that Moses and Elijah were not “asleep”.

See this was a “vision” of things to come. Christ was empowering them with knowledge to give them great strength when he had to be persecuted.

Remember when this cleared it says. verse 8 “When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only”. Again this was a “vision” of things to come. How do I know this? Again our sweet Lord told us- “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

The new Elijah by the way as you know was John the baptist.

Again I share this perspective with you. And truthfully I only wish to share with honor to you elvisman. Please know I say all this with great humility. I love you and your thoughts.

 

[reen12]

We are urged to speak to one another with respect, and are told to value human life - and yet deity speaks of a garbage dump? - Gehenna?

This is barbaric imagery [gehenna, lake of fire, non-quenching flames],
unworthy of true Godhead - whether meant literally or metaphorically.

reen12

 

[elvisman]

To: elvisman I love you brother…

With great respect to you and your perspective, with permission may I break this down point by point? I will assume you will permit me as this site promotes.

For me and How it shows, What doesnt this say?. It Does say and everlasting fire but not an everlasting torment. If only use this scripture you have to assume eternal torment. but again I appreciate you to let me continue.

Remeber too that Christ talked in many parables.
Christ is talking about a consuming fire and in reference to Gehenna is where the worms outsid the dump would never die because of the constant decomposing bodies. Outside the city of Jerusalem this dump site was always feeding these worms or maggots.

this seems to point to an eternal torment for humans but the eternal end is a cease to exist… Why can I say that? Because you can only find eternal torment for humans just eternal death (no existence).

this is absolutely correct. No man can put this fire out. Why? And Again Please read with all respect and honor to you, because this is the fire that will devour the earth and prepare it for the new earth new jerusalem. No man can quench it…

this is a vision, but notice he tells them to wait and it doesnt say when the cry took place. Also remember that the prayers of the saints are put into bowls to be poured out. These cries and prayers are kept within GOD’s heart and Heaven.

This is a clarification of the spirit in whom the power was given to ressurect our Christ… This spirit also spoke to those in the Days of Noah.

Yes the soul does part and it is in memory of the Father. How? I dont know but there are so many verses on soul sleep it points to the same as when your son or daughter can sleep safe and sound kept in your house.

Remember this passage about “consciousness” in the place sheol in the O.T. " … there is NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave [the Hebrew translated “grave” in this verse is sheol, which is synonymous with the Gk. hades] where you go". this is where You and I go.

(Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not my words, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answers in scriptuer this very question: “His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH” (Psalm 146: 3-4).

See this was a “vision” of things to come. Christ was empowering them with knowledge to give them great strength when he had to be persecuted.

Remember when this cleared it says. verse 8 “When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only”. Again this was a “vision” of things to come. How do I know this? Again our sweet Lord told us- “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

The new Elijah by the way as you know was John the baptist.

Again I share this perspective with you. And truthfully I only wish to share with honor to you elvisman. Please know I say all this with great humility. I love you and your thoughts.

Only Matthew’s Gospel uses the word, “vision”. Mark and Luke’s Gospels speak of it as an event – not a mere vision. Other translations don’t even use that work in Matthew’s Gospel. For instance, the NIV says:
"Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

The problem with your set of beliefs – and I have seen this before – is that you take individual passages and form doctrines instead of taking all of scripture in context.
When scripture is read in context, soul sleep doesn’t wash. Hell not being a place of suffering doesn’t wash.

**You say with certainty that John the Baptist was Elijah. John the Baptist himself rejected this claim (John 1:19-21) And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, "No."

---

**Look – some of your replies don’t even make sense nor are they orthodox Christian doctrine. **
You seem like a very nice, albeit confused person. I urge you to study up on orthodox Christian doctrine as handed down by the Apostles and Fathers of the Church.

By the way – what is your religious affiliation? Your profile says, “Non Denom” – which is a very broad description.

 

[holy_wood]

He sounds like a JW.

watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

CKP0208:

I started to just respond to your posted answering me since it did not answer my questions. Then you did give some what of an answer in the response to another post. I mean no disrespect nor do I mean to be accusatory, but you seem to be giving the JW view point here. Your bio says non denom and having somewhat a vast number of people in my family that are members of various non denom churches I have yet to hear any but the JW’s give this stance of no hell or eternal punishment, that all whom die are sleeping in wait of the final resurrection, that those who are not saved will just perish not be woken up or resurrected but that their souls will no longer exist. That it was not really Moses and Elijah but a vision or memory of Jesus of them that was seen at the transfiguration. again all for the JW handbook.

To make my point why would Jesus have to have transfigured for the two apostles to see just a vision of Moses and Elijah? Why would these two if in death sleep even had been there if Jesus was not really going to be talking to Them, would not the appearance of angles worked? At least that way Jesus would not have been talking to himself (visions/memories).

Let us keep in mind that Satan is the great deceiver. What better lie can you think of that to convince people that there is no Devil there is no Hell and the worst thing that can happen to your soul is that when you die your soul just will cease to exist?

If these are the thing that you are being taught you need to increase you time in prayer and to look for another Church as the one you are in is not giving you the truth< be is a non denom or the JW.

My Prayers are with you.

 

[CKP0208]

CKP0208:

I started to just respond to your posted answering me since it did not answer my questions. Then you did give some what of an answer in the response to another post. I mean no disrespect nor do I mean to be accusatory, but you seem to be giving the JW view point here. Your bio says non denom and having somewhat a vast number of people in my family that are members of various non denom churches I have yet to hear any but the JW’s give this stance of no hell or eternal punishment, that all whom die are sleeping in wait of the final resurrection, that those who are not saved will just perish not be woken up or resurrected but that their souls will no longer exist. That it was not really Moses and Elijah but a vision or memory of Jesus of them that was seen at the transfiguration. again all for the JW handbook.

To make my point why would Jesus have to have transfigured for the two apostles to see just a vision of Moses and Elijah? Why would these two if in death sleep even had been there if Jesus was not really going to be talking to Them, would not the appearance of angles worked? At least that way Jesus would not have been talking to himself (visions/memories).

Let us keep in mind that Satan is the great deceiver. What better lie can you think of that to convince people that there is no Devil there is no Hell and the worst thing that can happen to your soul is that when you die your soul just will cease to exist?

If these are the thing that you are being taught you need to increase you time in prayer and to look for another Church as the one you are in is not giving you the truth< be is a non denom or the JW.

My Prayers are with you.

Thank you so much for that! You so far are the best and easiest to converse with.

Ohhhhhh and By NO MEANS did i mean there is no Satan or Devil !! OH YES Definitely there is a Satan and his demons who want to always kill and harm at ANY GIVEN chance !! So yes we are so in agreement here.

When you say JW’s do you mean Jehovah Witnesses? If so I have never been or visited any church by them.

that those who are not saved will just perish not be woken up or resurrected but that their souls will no longer exist.

All souls will be woken up at one time or another. Either the 1st resurrection “such as you and I” (with your permission to say that), or the Second. Are you asking me about the second? Im not sure.

That it was not really Moses and Elijah but a vision or memory of Jesus of them

And I cant even pretend to understand how Jesus or His Almighty Father can make a vision happened such as Daniel’s, John’s or Jacob’s and others.

If these are the thing that you are being taught you need to increase you time in prayer and to look for another Church as the one you are in is not giving you the truth< be is a non denom or the JW

.

LOL I promise Im not crazy… I grew up in Catholocism and Studied The Catechism in my 20’s and it was then I wasnt getting what I needed and moved to Baptists (southern, moderate), then Lutheran, then WWCG After this I broke away from All doctrines and went Non Denomination.

LOL Believe me when I tell you – Im Sure you will LOL-- that when I bring this up with others I get quite a bit of raised eyebrows and even sometimes asked to leave… Which I do, and its ok because I love GOD and Love the LORD JESUS so much it’s all so Good ! this doesnt happen much any more as Im very careful as to whom I can speak with and trust that they can handle this like you can… By the way My Grandmother was a DEVOUT Catholic, my Father, my Brother and quite a few of my friends. Love them all so much…

And yes I do pray – very much and love to have that priviledge to speak with our Father in his son’s name…

Hope you dont think Im trying to start my own religion because I want NO PART in that… No Spank you.

 

[CKP0208]

Only Matthew’s Gospel uses the word, “vision”. Mark and Luke’s Gospels speak of it as an event – not a mere vision. Other translations don’t even use that work in Matthew’s Gospel. For instance, the NIV says:
"Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

The problem with your set of beliefs – and I have seen this before – is that you take individual passages and form doctrines instead of taking all of scripture in context.
When scripture is read in context, soul sleep doesn’t wash. Hell not being a place of suffering doesn’t wash.

**You say with certainty that John the Baptist was Elijah. John the Baptist himself rejected this claim (John 1:19-21) And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”

---

**Look – some of your replies **don’t even make sense nor are they orthodox Christian doctrine.
**You seem like a very **nice, albeit confused person. I urge you to study up on orthodox Christian doctrine as handed down by the Apostles and Fathers of the Church.

**By the way – what is your religious affiliation? Your profile says, “**Non Denom” – which is a very broad description.

Yes it is broad because I’ve been involved in so many different religions I now claim only that of OUR LORD JESUS… I cant go through all others again (I mean I grew up catholic and left in my late 20’s) I can explain more if you’d like…

I think for you and I, if its ok we can take these items one at a time…

And again with your permission lets look at soul sleep… I can tell this is very big with most and its a touchy subject and I really want to only edify… If you think this is not happening, tell me and I will go away politely with no regrets or negative thoughts of any kind.

but I must ask you how do you figure this vers Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not my words, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answers in scriptuer this very question: "His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH" (Psalm 146: 3-4).

And thank you for your patience…

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

CKP0208;4032629]Thank you so much for that! You so far are the best and easiest to converse with.

Thank you I try to be open to polite conversation and the exchange of ideas. Even if i disagree with them.

Ohhhhhh and By NO MEANS did i mean there is no Satan or Devil !! OH YES Definitely there is a Satan and his demons who want to always kill and harm at ANY GIVEN chance !! So yes we are so in agreement here

Good .

When you say JW’s do you mean Jehovah Witnesses? If so I have never been or visited any church by them.

Ok, I believe you. but everything you have said can be lifted almost word for word from the Jehovah witnesses website in regards to Hell and the First and second resurrections. So you can see why one would think that.

All souls will be woken up at one time or another. Either the 1st resurrection “such as you and I” (with your permission to say that), or the Second. Are you asking me about the second? Im not sure.

I would then say the second. Ok. If all will be awoken why would god wake them up just to extinguish them. why not do it in their sleep, so to speak.

And I cant even pretend to understand how Jesus or His Almighty Father can make a vision happened such as Daniel’s, John’s or Jacob’s and others

.

I am with you there in that I would not even begin to fathom how gods does such things. My Question is more to Why give a vision of people that are in death sleep of Jesus talking to them when would not having Jesus caring on a real conversation with angels that were actually there been Just as impressive to the Apostles and would not have had the Lord basically talking to himself.
.

LOL I promise Im not crazy… I grew up in Catholocism and Studied The Catechism in my 20’s and it was then I wasnt getting what I needed and moved to Baptists (southern, moderate), then Lutheran, then WWCG After this I broke away from All doctrines and went Non Denomination.

LOL Believe me when I tell you – Im Sure you will LOL-- that when I bring this up with others I get quite a bit of raised eyebrows and even sometimes asked to leave… Which I do, and its ok because I love GOD and Love the LORD JESUS so much it’s all so Good ! this doesnt happen much any more as Im very careful as to whom I can speak with and trust that they can handle this like you can… By the way My Grandmother was a DEVOUT Catholic, my Father, my Brother and quite a few of my friends. Love them all so much…

I do imagine that quite a few eyebrows get raise if you are telling people that there is no Hell. That raises yet another question. if those in your own church and out side of it and ( just to be politically correct ) 90 plus % of every thing written over the last 2000 years on the subject says that there is a Hell. Though I myself have held that on a subject matter or two over the years I am the only person that is right. On this I would have to say that I would have to go with the 90 plus%.

And yes I do pray – very much and love to have that priviledge to speak with our Father in his son’s name…

Hope you dont think Im trying to start my own religion because I want NO PART in that… No Spank you.

Good keep praying. I do not think your out to start you own religion. I do believe that you have missed the mark on this. There are many things that over the years I have had to change my out look on. The one constant has always been the Church. Whenever I have gotten really far out Ideas about God and other question of faith it has always been when I have went looking on my own and drawing only from what I see from scripture.

See were you see in scripture the talk of Gehenna as only a reference to something that was. I see it as an example of what Hell is.

Peace

 

[elvisman]

Yes it is broad because I’ve been involved in so many different religions I now claim only that of OUR LORD JESUS… I cant go through all others again (I mean I grew up catholic and left in my late 20’s) I can explain more if you’d like…

I think for you and I, if its ok we can take these items one at a time…

And again with your permission lets look at soul sleep… I can tell this is very big with most and its a touchy subject and I really want to only edify… If you think this is not happening, tell me and I will go away politely with no regrets or negative thoughts of any kind.

but I must ask you how do you figure this vers Ecc. 9:10). According to God’s Word, not my words, , when a person dies and returns to his earth, does he still have conscious thoughts? GOD’S answers in scriptuer this very question: "His spirit goes forth, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts PERISH" (Psalm 146: 3-4).

And thank you for your patience…

Again - it’s this practice of taking 1 or 2 verses and forming doctrine around them while dismissing the rest of scripture that teaches the exact opposite.
You sound to me like many Jehovah’s Witnesses I know who teach this falsehood.

In the entire context of Scripture - and I have furnished many examples - soul sleep doesn’t work and it is not in line with orthodox Christianity.

Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and others rejected this false teaching for the same reason you are professing it as truth. They knew - as most of Christendom did at the time - when Scripture is peaking figuratively and metaphorically and when it is speaking literally.

Anyway, I sure would like to know why you left the fullness of truth (the Catholic Church) for a partial - if not jumbled and confused version of truth. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?

 

[The_Catholic]

CKPO208, Wow, you really do seem to have the spirit of Christ. I say that from the way you say you love everyone, you pretty much melted me into goo. “You will know them by their fruits.” That’s the primary focus on a child of God, to witness how they act, rather than what theological doctrines they believe. The fruits of the spirit, all of them are practical, not theological. Therefore i find it difficult to accept that because you believe in soul sleep and no hell, that you’re soul is in danger. So you differ on a few doctrines, big whoop, i don’t see the harm.

sometimes i also wonder about hell, it seems to make little sense, and yes i will admit, extremely cruel, especially for one who comitted a mild sin, as opposed to say what stalin or hitler did. sure opponents can say that one is disregarding hell so there is no consequence, but if that’s the case then they do not love God anyway. And what, does one WANT to see an unbeliever suffer in a pit of roasting flames forever and ever and ever? Is that not too vengeful? i don’t know, it seems that just as God gave him/her an eternal spirit, He may also have taken it away.

I’m not saying that i don’t believe in hell, it’s just, well i don’t know. does it not seem kind of paganish too? did not the pagans of Christ’s era also believe in such things?

and yet nowhere in the OT do i see any direct verse regarding hell. it seems, if you were righteous, you dwelled with God, if you were wicked, the His wrath fell upon you and you were killed off.

With verses as “unquenchable fire,” does it not say that sodom and gomorah were struck down with “unquenchable fire” also? and yet they are not burning today. perhaps it simply means the fire will be unquenchable for man, and that there is no way to stop it, and that it will reduce you to ashes.

all very interesting.

 

[CKP0208]

Hey “The Catholic”,
Thanks for the response…

And you make a great point… And that being I believe as you do, its not Doctrine that saves us… Its the Faith and belief in our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank GOD for that… IF it were for any knowledge, or doctrine then, we are all screwed royally… But thanks be to our Father in Heaven and his beautiful Son Jesus that we not be worried about this…

May I ask? What is it, or Script that keeps you hanging onto (for lack of better words) the “Hell Fire” type doctrine.?