Hell is a place, right?

[Patrick_George]

Hi all

I was recently watching Fr. Robert Barron’s series on Catholicism, and I must say it was a joy to watch our faith so well explained and many misconceptions being addressed. I would recommend it to all if you haven’t watched it yet. But yesterday, I was viewing one of Fr. Barron’s video’s from WordonFire.org, and he said hell is a state of being, one you freely choose, whereby you alienate yourself from God and are lonely because of it. Life “becomes hell” for you. He stressed that it’s not so much a place, but that all those symbols of fire and punishment are describing the state you’re in because you have rejected God… Now I greatly respect Fr. Barron, but I can’t reconcile this with with Catholic Tradition that believes in the existence of heaven and purgatory, and surely if those places exist, so does hell!? How could hell not be a place? Even the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima proved it. What exactly is our position on this? Is there a place called hell or is it simply a predicament?

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Hell isn’t on the material plane, as we are. It’s a spiritual realm; non-corporeal. The constant theme of descriptions of it are: burning, torture, despair, hatred, the company of devils, separation from God and eternal suffering.

I’d describe it like this: some people have nice dreams, some have constant nightmares. Hell is the nightmare from which you never wake up. It’s very real when it’s happening to you. But where is it? Maybe everywhere, from our perspective. Sinners die in the body and they’re there.

 

[GraceSofia]

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

More here: ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm

 

[WeSeeLight]

Remember Apocalypse 21: the physical world will not be abolished as in some gnostic fantasy. There will be a literal descent of the New Jerusalem, a real city with real dimensions, onto the planet called Earth. Time will end, and decay will cease, but physicality will be completely sanctified and real.

Hell, along with the glorified planet Earth, will exist really, as well as in the depths of the souls of those who rejected the Truth. I personally assume that no exact locale of Hell is extant yet, because there has been no resurrection of the dead and thus incorporeal souls have no fire or brimstone in which to reside.

We should rather be praying that people turn to the Messiah, than ask pedantic questions about where and what Hell is.

 

[RemRam]

Im not so sure if we can also call it a “place” or not, but Im sure it’s somewhere out there

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Hell isn’t on the material plane, as we are. It’s a spiritual realm; non-corporeal. The constant theme of descriptions of it are: burning, torture, despair, hatred, the company of devils, separation from God and eternal suffering.

I’d describe it like this: some people have nice dreams, some have constant nightmares. Hell is the nightmare from which you never wake up. It’s very real when it’s happening to you. But where is it? Maybe everywhere, from our perspective. Sinners die in the body and they’re there.

Traditionally, hell is thought to be at the center of the earth. It is a spiritual realm, yes. But at the resurrection, both the elect and the damned will get their physical bodies back…

 

[Don_Jackson]

Hell is a condition, not a physical place. As others have stated, it is the separation from God.

If it must be “a place”, we might be surprised by the place. The “place” could be where souls are residing collectively, both the saints and those not enjoying the beatific vision. Imagine a saint sitting side by side with someone condemned, the condemned soul in total darkness and agony, and the saint basking in the comforting light of God’s love.

The “place” is a worldly constraint, not a spiritual. The mystery is so great, we need a worldly allegory so we can wrap our minds around it.

Peace and all good!

 

[1AugustSon7]

There is no reason for hell to be associated with a physical area, since no one is present there in body: the bodies of the blessed and the damned remain here on earth with no marked difference between them whatsoever: i.e., we can hardly tell the difference between the body of a man whose soul is presently in hell from the one whose soul is enjoying the Beatific Vision or heaven (and likewise with Purgatory).

Further, the angels (whether holy or wicked) are not fastened to corporeal bodies; and, if or when they condescend to so appear and God permits, it is but temporary and, notwithstanding, their spirits remain either blessed or tormented.

Therefore, there is no need to believe either heaven or hell is, at present, a physical locality, seeing as heaven is transcendent and eternal: i.e., it existed before the creation of the corporeal world, as the production of angels makes clear: all of them would have enjoyed heaven originally (if even they refused it immediately and rebelled) before there was any physicality.

Consider that in dreams we can place ourselves within a physicality, though in reality we are within a purely mental state and unmoved physically; notwithstanding, dreams are rightly considered to be generally purely imaginary or ficticious, whereas heaven or hell are actually quite real states, and perhaps foreshadow and communicate some (from our perspective) real corporeal state of the world after the Last Day: nothing is impossible with God. This latter part, however, is but my own opinion, subject to the Church’s pleasure.

The Beatific Vision itself expresses relationship of the soul to God and an intuitive vision of the soul directly of God, without any mediating creature (e.g., physicality, a creature in the sense that it is created, though of course not necessarily a living creature: e.g., a rock or a desert plain - Christ, of course, is by no means a creature.).

 

[JRKH]

I doubt if this “debate” will ever be fully settled this side of Judgement.

Therefore…My suggestion is to not worry about it…

It is sufficient to know that it is not a place/state in which I wish to find myself, and for that reason it is far better to focus on the goal…the Narrow Gate…the beatific vision…

Eyes forward and upward…

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=Patrick George;9837189]Hi all

I was recently watching Fr. Robert Barron’s series on Catholicism, and I must say it was a joy to watch our faith so well explained and many misconceptions being addressed. I would recommend it to all if you haven’t watched it yet. But yesterday, I was viewing one of Fr. Barron’s video’s from WordonFire.org, and he said hell is a state of being, one you freely choose, whereby you alienate yourself from God and are lonely because of it. Life “becomes hell” for you. He stressed that it’s not so much a place, but that all those symbols of fire and punishment are describing the state you’re in because you have rejected God… Now I greatly respect Fr. Barron, but I can’t reconcile this with with Catholic Tradition that believes in the existence of heaven and purgatory, and surely if those places exist, so does hell!? How could hell not be a place? Even the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima proved it. What exactly is our position on this? Is there a place called hell or is it simply a predicament?

Christ proclaims it is Matthew 5:29 “And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell”

Here is a site to check out

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/what_hell.htm

 

[centurionguard]

I can’t say I don’t give a conscious serious worry about finding myself in Hell, least I boast in pride of (“my”) accomplishments that are not really my own during my spiritual journey on the narrow path.

Methinks sometimes priests do not go enough at length teaching about the fires of Hell.
And it shows in the immoral disintegration of society and amongst Catholics who have lost or given up their Faith.

A little fire and brimstone fear never hurt any Catholic because there are Catholics who don’t practice our Faith the way we should.

I certainly don’t take the Catholic teachings of Hell for granted.

Hell is one extremely scary existence. “An eternal fire,” "an eternal malediction, an eternal rage, and a frightful indescribable despair at being never able to gaze upon Him who created our soul. One being in Hell would anguish in eternity hoping in futility to catch only a glimpse of their Creator God, all the time knowing in eternity such would never ever be a possibility. It truly is an unquenchable fire beyond human comprehension except for those who spend their eternity there.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
Catechism of the Catholic Church

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 12
“I BELIEVE IN LIFE EVERLASTING”

1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life. When the Church for the last time speaks Christ’s words of pardon and absolution over the dying Christian, seals him for the last time with a strengthening anointing, and gives him Christ in viaticum as nourishment for the journey, she speaks with gentle assurance:

Go forth, Christian soul, from this world
in the name of God the almighty Father,
who created you,
in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God,
who suffered for you,
in the name of the Holy Spirit,
who was poured out upon you.
Go forth, faithful Christian!

May you live in peace this day,
may your home be with God in Zion,
with Mary, the virgin Mother of God,
with Joseph, and all the angels and saints. . . .

May you return to [your Creator]
who formed you from the dust of the earth.
May holy Mary, the angels, and all the saints
come to meet you as you go forth from this life. . . .
May you see your Redeemer face to face. 591

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

 

[LaSainte]

I think that one thing upon which we can all agree is that hell sucks and if we all knew quite how much, we would probably spend a lot more time trying not to go there

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think that one thing upon which we can all agree is that hell sucks and if we all knew quite how much, we would probably spend a lot more time trying not to go there

This.

 

[Waiting]

Hi all

I was recently watching Fr. Robert Barron’s series on Catholicism, and I must say it was a joy to watch our faith so well explained and many misconceptions being addressed. I would recommend it to all if you haven’t watched it yet. But yesterday, I was viewing one of Fr. Barron’s video’s from WordonFire.org, and he said hell is a state of being, one you freely choose, whereby you alienate yourself from God and are lonely because of it. Life “becomes hell” for you. He stressed that it’s not so much a place, but that all those symbols of fire and punishment are describing the state you’re in because you have rejected God… Now I greatly respect Fr. Barron, but I can’t reconcile this with with Catholic Tradition that believes in the existence of heaven and purgatory, and surely if those places exist, so does hell!? How could hell not be a place? Even the apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima proved it. What exactly is our position on this? Is there a place called hell or is it simply a predicament?

There are those who have been given visions of hell, such as the children at Fatima, and some of the saints, so hell is real. I don’t know if these visions are showing a place or a condition, but they put the fear of hell into me, and I plan to live in such a way as to avoid even the slightest possibility of entering hell. Just concentrating on how God has showered His love on me in so many ways, makes serious sin repugnant to me. Such ingratitude for so many gifts is unnatural for most of us. It’s only when we take our eyes off the Crucifix that we are capable of mortal sin.

 

[JRKH]

There are those who have been given visions of hell, such as the children at Fatima, and some of the saints, so hell is real. I don’t know if these visions are showing a place or a condition, but they put the fear of hell into me, and I plan to live in such a way as to avoid even the slightest possibility of entering hell. Just concentrating on how God has showered His love on me in so many ways, makes serious sin repugnant to me. Such ingratitude for so many gifts is unnatural for most of us. It’s only when we take our eyes off the Crucifix that we are capable of mortal sin.

 

[edwest2]

Here is what the Church tells us:

catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Peace,
Ed

 

[Patrick_George]

More here: ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm

Thank you. So from what I gather so far, hell isn’t a physical place as we would think of it, but a spiritual realm to which people’s souls go if they have completely separated themselves from God to the end of their lives, and more than this," it is the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God". It’s just, when you say it’s a state, it sounds like it’s something that can happen now, while we’re still alive in bodily form, but that can’t be, since the whole business of being “thrown into hell” happens at the Second judgement. Right?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Again, after the general resurrection, the damned get their bodies back. So hell iwill be more than a pure spiritual state…

 

[MarMax]

Hell isn’t on the material plane, as we are. It’s a spiritual realm; non-corporeal. The constant theme of descriptions of it are: burning, torture, despair, hatred, the company of devils, separation from God and eternal suffering.

I’d describe it like this: some people have nice dreams, some have constant nightmares. Hell is the nightmare from which you never wake up. It’s very real when it’s happening to you. But where is it?** Maybe everywhere, from our perspective.** Sinners die in the body and they’re there.

At the Resurrection/Return of Christ, souls are reunited with their bodies. They then either enter Heaven or Hell, based on their Judgement (already rendered in their particular Judgement at death, and recapped at the Great Judgement). Having body and soul united, Hell indeed is a real place. Spiritual torment and bodily torment will be united for these people-- God forbid any here are amongst them.

The soul, via the mind, uses the body as a tool of sin and so it must also suffer for its sin just as those who attain the Beatific Vision will be in Heaven Body and Soul-- as is Our Lady.

This reduction of the horror of hell as some never-ending nightmare, totally without the coinciding punishment of the body, at least in the future, is at odds with Tradition.

The bolded portion, “maybe everywhere” is derived from the heresy of the Ubiquitists.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers beautifully the various objections, and I have provided the body of his main answer below along with the link to the full objections, contrary, answer and replies.
Summa Theologica, Supplement, Q97, Art5:

I answer that, There have been many opinions about the fire of hell. For some philosophers, as Avicenna, disbelieving in the resurrection, thought that the soul alone would be punished after death. And as they considered it impossible for the soul, being incorporeal, to be punished with a corporeal fire, they denied that the fire whereby the wicked are punished is corporeal, and pretended that all statements as to souls being punished in future after death by any corporeal means are to be taken metaphorically. For just as the joy and happiness of good souls will not be about any corporeal object, but about something spiritual, namely the attainment of their end, so will the torment of the wicked be merely spiritual, in that they will be grieved at being separated from their end, the desire whereof is in them by nature. Wherefore, just as all descriptions of the soul’s delight after death that seem to denote bodily pleasure–for instance, that they are refreshed, that they smile, and so forth–must be taken metaphorically, so also are all such descriptions of the soul’s suffering as seem to imply bodily punishment–for instance, that they burn in fire, or suffer from the stench, and so forth. For as spiritual pleasure and pain are unknown to the majority, these things need to be declared under the figure of corporeal pleasures and pains, in order that men may be moved the more to the desire or fear thereof. Since, however, in the punishment of the damned there will be not only pain of loss corresponding to the aversion that was in their sin, but also pain of sense corresponding to the conversion, it follows that it is not enough to hold the above manner of punishment. For this reason Avicenna himself (Met. ix) added another explanation, by saying that the souls of the wicked are punished after death, not by bodies but by images of bodies; just as in a dream it seems to a man that he is suffering various pains on account of such like images being in his imagination. Even Augustine seems to hold this kind of punishment (Gen. ad lit. xii, 32), as is clear from the text. But this would seem an unreasonable statement. For the imagination is a power that makes use of a bodily organ: so that it is impossible for such visions of the imagination to occur in the soul separated from the body, as in the soul of the dreamer. Wherefore Avicenna also that he might avoid this difficulty, said that the soul separated from the body uses as an organ some part of the heavenly body, to which the human body needs to be conformed, in order to be perfected by the rational soul, which is like the movers of the heavenly body–thus following somewhat the opinion of certain philosophers of old, who maintained that souls return to the stars that are their compeers. But this is absolutely absurd according to the Philosopher’s teaching, since the soul uses a definite bodily organ, even as art uses definite instruments, so that it cannot pass from one body to another, as Pythagoras is stated (De Anima i, text. 53) to have maintained. As to the statement of Augustine we shall say below how it is to be answered (ad 2). However, whatever we may say of the fire that torments the separated souls, we must admit that the fire which will torment the bodies of the damned after the resurrection is corporeal, since one cannot fittingly apply a punishment to a body unless that punishment itself be bodily. Wherefore Gregory (Dial. iv) proves the fire of hell to be corporeal from the very fact that the wicked will be cast thither after the resurrection. Again Augustine, as quoted in the text of Sentent. iv, D, 44, clearly admits (De Civ. Dei xxi, 10) that the fire by which the bodies are tormented is corporeal. And this is the point at issue for the present. We have said elsewhere (70, 3) how the souls of the damned are punished by this corporeal fire.

Source: newadvent.org/summa/5097.htm#article5

As this punishment is corporeal, it cannot be “everywhere” as that would place hell everywhere, and so, it must be a definite place.

… or so is the Traditionally Catholic answer. Any other answer is not Catholic and disordered in its formation, no matter how well it is defended.

 

[MarMax]

It would seem that Article 7 also expounds on some more of these questions being raised by what are, at best, ignorant answers (for I do not think anyone here is purposely misleading others).

I shall not post the entire article but merely his Answer, and replies to Objections. I suggest a full reading of the entire Question. I have bolded pertinent parts to things I have read others erroneously state in this thread.

I answer that, As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xv, 16), “I am of opinion that no one knows in what part of the world hell is situated, unless the Spirit of God has revealed this to some one.” Wherefore Gregory (Dial. iv) having been questioned on this point answers: “About this matter I dare not give a rash decision. For some have deemed hell to be in some part of the earth’s surface; others think it to be beneath the earth.” He shows the latter opinion to be the more probable for two reasons. First from the very meaning of the word. These are his words: “If we call it the nether regions (infernus [The Latin for ‘hell’]), for the reason that it is beneath us [inferius], what earth is in relation to heaven, such should be hell in relation to earth.” Secondly, from the words of Revelation 5:3: “No man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book”: where the words “in heaven” refer to the angels, “on earth” to men living in the body, and “under the earth” to souls in hell. Augustine too (Gen. ad lit. xii, 34) seems to indicate two reasons for the congruity of hell being under the earth. One is that “whereas the souls of the departed sinned through love of the flesh, they should be treated as the dead flesh is wont to be treated, by being buried beneath the earth.” The other is that heaviness is to the body what sorrow is to the spirit, and joy (of spirit) is as lightness (of body). Wherefore “just as in reference to the body, all the heavier things are beneath the others, if they be placed in order of gravity, so in reference to the spirit, the lower place is occupied by whatever is more sorrowful”; and thus even as the empyrean is a fitting place for the joy of the elect, so the lowest part of the earth is a fitting place for the sorrow of the damned. Nor does it signify that Augustine (De Civ. Dei xv, 16) says that “hell is stated or believed to be under the earth,” because he withdraws this (Retract. ii, 29) where he says: “Methinks I should have said that hell is beneath the earth, rather than have given the reason why it is stated or believed to be under the earth.” However, some philosophers have maintained that hell is situated beneath the terrestrial orb, but above the surface of the earth, on that part which is opposite to us. This seems to have been the meaning of Isidore when he asserted that “the sun and the moon will stop in the place wherein they were created, lest the wicked should enjoy this light in the midst of their torments.” But this is no argument, if we assert that hell is under the earth. We have already stated how these words may be explained (91, 2).

Pythagoras held the place of punishment to be in a fiery sphere situated, according to him, in the middle of the whole world: and he called it the prison-house of Jupiter as Aristotle relates (De Coelo et Mundo ii). It is, however, more in keeping with Scripture to say that it is beneath the earth.

Reply to Objection 1. The words of Job, “God shall remove him out of the globe,” refer to the surface of the earth “De orbe terrarum,” which might be rendered “from the land of the living.”], i.e. from this world. This is how Gregory expounds it (Moral. xiv) where he says: “He is removed from the globe when, at the coming of the heavenly judge, he is taken away from this world wherein he now prides himself in his wickedness.” Nor does globe here signify the universe, as though the place of punishment were outside the whole universe.

Reply to Objection 2. **Fire continues in that place for all eternity by the ordering of Divine justice **although according to its nature an element cannot last for ever outside its own place, especially if things were to remain in this state of generation and corruption. The fire there will be of the very greatest heat, because its heat will be all gathered together from all parts, through being surrounded on all sides by the cold of the earth.

Reply to Objection 3. Hell will never lack sufficient room to admit the bodies of the damned: since hell is accounted one of the three things that “never are satisfied” (Proverbs 30:15-16). Nor is it unreasonable that God’s power should maintain within the bowels of the earth a hollow great enough to contain all the bodies of the damned.

Reply to Objection 4. It does not follow of necessity that “by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented,” except as regards the principal instruments of sin: for as much as man having sinned in soul and body will be punished in both.** But it does not follow that a man will be punished in the very place where he sinned, because the place due to the damned is other from that due to wayfarers. We may also reply that these words refer to the punishments inflicted on man on the way: according as each sin has its corresponding punishment, since “inordinate love is its own punishment,”** as Augustine states (Confess. i, 12).

Source: newadvent.org/summa/5097.htm#article7