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Patrick_George
Guest
Thank you. This is just what I need; something from both Tradition and Scripture.
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1AugustSon7
Guest
Problem is that at present there are no bodies in hell as every graveyard bears witness.
Further, the fall angels are [even now] positively punished, even when or as they are in the possession of a human body (some exorcists say that possession of a human body, for the fallen angels, in some way alleviates their suffering or, at least, gives them a sadistic joy alongside the never-ending punishment they still endure, which is why they fight tenaciously to remain in [possession of] the human body, and must be [spiritually] tortured so as to finally give up [possession of] a human body).
Therefore, spiritual punishment, regardless of a body, is possible - and this, necessarily without any reference whatsoever to a body, otherwise the fallen angels could not actually be punished, because they have never had bodies; the contrary opinion would mean that only men could actually be punished or be made to suffer for their evil deeds and sins, which doctrine would be most delighted in by the devils, they taking joy at human error and folly; for by implication such a doctrine means they, the devils, are not punished, but only men, which contradicts the impartiality and justice of God, and subjects mortal men only peculiarly to any kind of punishment for wickedness, and exempts other rational beings, i.e., the (fallen) angels.
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iloveangels
Guest
Wow, is this a mess. What the Church REALLY teaches is below.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
Also, specifically regarding the condition of the body after death: “996 From the beginning, Christian faith in the resurrection has met with incomprehension and opposition. “On no point does the Christian faith encounter more opposition than on the resurrection of the body.” It is very commonly accepted that the life of the human person continues in a spiritual fashion after death. But how can we believe that this body, so clearly mortal, could rise to everlasting life?”
998 Who will rise? All the dead will rise, "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."552
999 How? Christ is raised with his own body: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself”;553 but he did not return to an earthly life. So, in him, “all of them will rise again with their own bodies which they now bear,” but Christ “will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body,” into a “spiritual body”:554
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But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel. . . . What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . The dead will be raised imperishable. . . . For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.555"A person could conceivably spend his everlasting life in hell. I wouldn’t recommend it though.
**This has been settled conclusively for more than 1500 years now. **
All that conjecture about angels, and that’s what you have there, is completely and utterly besides the point, if you’re a human being. Nada, zip. What’s between the bold print above applies to human beings.
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october_baby
Guest
Hell or Gehanna is mentioned in the 4 gospels and the book of Revlations. As a former
protestant, thats good enough for me. :sad_yes:
protestant, thats good enough for me. :sad_yes:
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1AugustSon7
Guest
I actually defended, and did not deny, anything you quoted.
Please refer carefully to what I was originally responding to: the implication I objected to was that souls or spirits cannot experience a real punishment without reference to [their] bodies, which means the souls of those who die and descend to hell before the ressurection cannot experience punishment, because they are not united with a body; however, we know *de fide *that they are punished, either from loss of God (principally) or possibly even suffering positive punishments for their other sins, which necessarily would be purely spiritual in nature, they having possession of no body to facilitate any punishment in reference to it: i.e., there is a difference in the degree of punishment(s). All in hell suffer from being deprived of the vision of God.
Furthermore, this doctrine or idea that I am objecting to -at least as far as I understand it- could be understood -by logical extention- to deny that purely spiritual beings can even be punished, because they have never had a body ; however, Scripture and the Church both make very plain that they (the fallen), though entirely spiritual, are positively punished:
Luke 8: [28] And when he saw Jesus, he fell down before him; and crying out with a loud voice, he said: What have I to do with thee, Jesus, Son of the most high God? I beseech thee, do not torment me.
And,
[31] And they besought him that he would not command them to go into the abyss. [32] And there was there a herd of many swine feeding on the mountain; and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Notice that the devils experience degrees of punishment or pain: they would rather be transferred from a human body to an animal body, than have to return to what the Scripture calls “the abyss.” Now “the abyss” absolutely does not need to be a place because these are spiritual creatures; therefore, without any reference to a place or even a body, the devils are punished; indeed, their punishment and pain is at its apex when they are actually completely devoid of any reference to a body (in "the abyss"), which consequently means there is absolutely no need or requirement of an actual “place” or “space”. Hence, they beg Our Lord to be sent into swine rather than sent back to “the abyss.”
Further, mark the word “torment.” Purely spiritual creatures can suffer in various degrees.
Finally,
Emphasis mine.
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Windmill
Guest
Precise identification of eternal agony and despair, whether mental or physical (or both) is little consolation to those who are doomed to it.
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