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PhilVaz
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OK, a thread on Hell. M_Oliver is coming from a theology that not only denies Hell is eternal, he denies the Trinity. I think the latter is much more important, but since this thread is about Hell, here are the most explicit texts that need to be dealt with by an “annihilationist”
It is clear the fire and punishment connected with Gehenna…
(1) is ETERNAL (Mt 18:8; 25:41,46; Jude 7)
(2) is UNQUENCHABLE, i.e. it will never die out or be put out (Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43,48; Lk 3:17)
(3) signifies TORMENT and not annihilation (Rev 14:9-11; 20:10)
Unpleasant, but that is the teaching of Scripture. The “fire” is metaphor, the main concept is “separation from God.” Anyway, the Oliver person has several articles on his site on the subject. He basically takes the Armstrongism / Seventh-day Adventist viewpoint. He obviously doesn’t like the Lake of Fire teaching, but who doesn’t?
Two articles on my site on Soul Sleep and Hell go into some depth.
I’ll add: Oliver also thinks Catholics believe in “double predestination” but that is not the case as in Calvinism and Catholicism Contrasted. Also 1 Cor 3:10-15 deals with judgment according to works, it doesn’t deal explicitly with Hell (Gehenna) as the passages above do. I’ll also admit Hell is a lot more clearer in Scripture than purgatory.
Phil P
It is clear the fire and punishment connected with Gehenna…
(1) is ETERNAL (Mt 18:8; 25:41,46; Jude 7)
(2) is UNQUENCHABLE, i.e. it will never die out or be put out (Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43,48; Lk 3:17)
(3) signifies TORMENT and not annihilation (Rev 14:9-11; 20:10)
Unpleasant, but that is the teaching of Scripture. The “fire” is metaphor, the main concept is “separation from God.” Anyway, the Oliver person has several articles on his site on the subject. He basically takes the Armstrongism / Seventh-day Adventist viewpoint. He obviously doesn’t like the Lake of Fire teaching, but who doesn’t?
Two articles on my site on Soul Sleep and Hell go into some depth.
I’ll add: Oliver also thinks Catholics believe in “double predestination” but that is not the case as in Calvinism and Catholicism Contrasted. Also 1 Cor 3:10-15 deals with judgment according to works, it doesn’t deal explicitly with Hell (Gehenna) as the passages above do. I’ll also admit Hell is a lot more clearer in Scripture than purgatory.
Phil P
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Church_Militant
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The hell you say Ollie! 
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mark_a
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Yippie!!!
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PhilVaz
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Oliver article on Lake of Fire (part 5) << Remember back about thirty pages where I showed you that the Scriptures in Rev. 20 and 21 do not actually say what happens to a person who is thrown into the lake of fire? It does not say they are burned or tortured. It does not say if they are killed. It does not say how long they are in this fire (there is an indication as to how low the beast, false prophet, and Satan are in this lake of fire, however). >>
Here is what he needs to deal with:
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-11 KJV)
(1) Tormented with fire and brimstone
(2) the torment lasts forever
(3) they have no rest day nor night
Revelation 14 is basically the same as Revelation 20 in terms of how long the torment is (forever and ever, or eternal, cf. Matthew 25:41,46). Again, not pleasant to think about.
Phil P
Here is what he needs to deal with:
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-11 KJV)
(1) Tormented with fire and brimstone
(2) the torment lasts forever
(3) they have no rest day nor night
Revelation 14 is basically the same as Revelation 20 in terms of how long the torment is (forever and ever, or eternal, cf. Matthew 25:41,46). Again, not pleasant to think about.
Phil P
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PhilVaz
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And one more point from Oliver (same article above):
“Theologians say that ‘the lake of fire’ is physical, material, and literal.”
Uh, can you name one theologian today who says the fire is physical and material? I can’t think of one. Fire is a metaphor. For a scholarly article on the nature and biblical language on Hell from a Catholic perspective, see this from the old Catholic Encyclopedia.
I think we might start another thread on the Trinity which you deny since that’s more important than the nature of Hell.
Phil P
“Theologians say that ‘the lake of fire’ is physical, material, and literal.”
Uh, can you name one theologian today who says the fire is physical and material? I can’t think of one. Fire is a metaphor. For a scholarly article on the nature and biblical language on Hell from a Catholic perspective, see this from the old Catholic Encyclopedia.
I think we might start another thread on the Trinity which you deny since that’s more important than the nature of Hell.
Phil P
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Joe_Kelley
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I will quote St padre Pio’s comment to the young man who told him he didn’t believe in hell:
Don’t Worry. You Will When You Get There.
Don’t Worry. You Will When You Get There.
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adrift
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Matthew
Chapter 13:30
Chapter 13:30
Chapter 25:46
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