Hell

[Snerticus]

If hell is not real fire, then how come The Blessed Mother showed the souls burning in hell to the three children at Fatima? If Jesus said the word fire then I imagine he means it for our understanding as literal fire. What other way can fire be explained or understood other then ‘fire’. Is He a God who likes to confuse us?

Then that would also include when he said ‘take and eat, for this is my body.’ He either means what he says, or he doesn’t. Why would he tell us the word fire if he means something else. We can’t pick and choose what we will understand one way and what we’ll understand another way. In that case, the church would then have to speculate as to what he meant when he said ‘take and eat for this is my body.’

This is just how I see it and my own opinion.

Let’s see if I can clarify a bit. Do you remember when He said just before the passages I referred to in Luke

'I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!
50 There is a baptism I must still receive, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!
'I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!

Now if Jesus meant it literally, do you really think He wants to set us all on fire? The real earthly fire? I hope not. Another way that you can look at it is when people say they are “on fire” for the Lord. It’s a spiritual fire. We can’t feel it, but we can see it’s effects in our earthly life. The Saints in Heaven had part of this fire on earth.

If Jesus can refer to fire in this way, I don’t see how He can’t refer to fire elsewhere in the Bible as being spiritual… or cleansing… or otherwise. In fact, I’m sure He does.

Hislittlelady, the fact that Jesus says something straighforward in one passage does not mean He’s not going to be allegorical in another. We all know that He does speak allegorically at times and literally at others. These obviously need to be interpreted correctly in order to be understood properly.

(Besides, Fatima is an accepted apparition in the Church, however, you are not required to believe it.)

 

[Snerticus]

PJM,

The fire of hell is a tormenting fire by nature of it being a spiritual fire. It cannot be the same fire as Purgatory, either, because hell is eternal, while Purgatory is temporal, and because it would be unjust for the holy souls to be tormented by the devils - for they are not among the damned but among the saved. Nor can the damned have the Presense of God, for hell in itself is the loss of God.

I thought that’s what I said, basically. Oops… thought you were referring to me. Sorry!

A man’s office dose not indicate he might not be in error. Even theologians can be wrong.

Of course, no one is infallible in everything. But they can be right, too.

Besides, if you heard it described, it would be reasonable to believe. I’m not betting that what he said was right, but it’s the best description I’ve heard anyone give so far.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[Hislittlelady]

Let’s see if I can clarify a bit. Do you remember when He said just before the passages I referred to in Luke

Now if Jesus meant it literally, do you really think He wants to set us all on fire? The real earthly fire? I hope not. Another way that you can look at it is when people say they are “on fire” for the Lord. It’s a spiritual fire. We can’t feel it, but we can see it’s effects in our earthly life. The Saints in Heaven had part of this fire on earth.

If Jesus can refer to fire in this way, I don’t see how He can’t refer to fire elsewhere in the Bible as being spiritual… or cleansing… or otherwise. In fact, I’m sure He does.

I must agree to a certain extent, but the fact is we can guess and speculate all we want, but there is no human eye nor human ear , nor has it ever come to our understanding, seeing as how our minds are not capable, of fully understanding exactly what God has prepared for us.

It could well be he uses the term fire as a way to make our human mind understand, and I would think that the idea of fire is the worst possible frightful punishment we can imagine. Since everything on earth will eventually pass away, that would also include fire as we know it, so it must be a fire of something that we cannot comprehend.

Everything concerning God in the life to come is spirit, but as written, eventually will become tangible when He returns and makes His kingdom on earth, which we can’t even imagine. Everything is one big mystery. I love imagining how it will be, but it can be frustrating too, so I try not to think too much. Better that we just keep on praying and walk along humbly with our Lord.

 

[Snerticus]

I must agree to a certain extent, but the fact is we can guess and speculate all we want, but there is no human eye nor human ear , nor has it ever come to our understanding, seeing as how our minds are not capable, of fully understanding exactly what God has prepared for us.

It could well be he uses the term fire as a way to make our human mind understand, and I would think that the idea of fire is the worst possible frightful punishment we can imagine. Since everything on earth will eventually pass away, that would also include fire as we know it, so it must be a fire of something that we cannot comprehend.

Everything concerning God in the life to come is spirit, but as written, eventually will become tangible when He returns and makes His kingdom on earth, which we can’t even imagine. Everything is one big mystery. I love imagining how it will be, but it can be frustrating too, so I try not to think too much. Better that we just keep on praying and walk along humbly with our Lord.

You are correct and I hoped to bring that across when I posted my original comment you referred to. I said we wouldn’t really know until we got there.

On your last point, if it makes one uncomfortable thinking about things, then that’s okay if we don’t. I’m not one to accept things in stone when I meditate on something. But I do love meditating on how things* could *be. Besides, that apologist I mentioned helped put things in perspective for me. Things I never could have imagined on my own. But yes, I know he could be wrong. I just like the way he described everything, even Hell, as a product of God’s love. It was just awesome to think that Hell as we believe it to be here on earth is punishment, but in reality it is a gift. It’s another paradox we won’t understand fully until our time comes…

 

[Extempore]

Why is fire mentioned in the Fatima prayer if there is no fire in Hell?

Additionally, didn’t the Fatima vision of Hell include souls being tormented by fire?

 

[Cluny]

As one Latin priest says, in the World to Come, God becomes the Fire that burns, the Fire that purifies, or the Fire that warms.

That’s an Orthodox belief, not a Catholic belief.

I just called the Priest in question, and he told me it was from a conference written by a nun.

Besides, Orthodox don’t believe in Purgatory.

 

[Layman]

Intellectualisms are dangerous. I perceive there’s been a trend to play down Hell post-Vat. II.

It would be wise to assume that:

Hell is terrible;
Hell is the fire that burns yet which does not consume;
Hell is eternal suffering.

… and to **make every effort possible to ensure you don’t end up there. **

That’s the safest option. If Jesus is not so strict, you’ll have earned a high place in Heaven for your efforts. If Jesus is strict, you’ll still get in.

If slack off because you think Hell is just a concept or a story to frighten peasants then you’re taking a terrible gamble with your soul.

 

[Timothysis]

Additionally, didn’t the Fatima vision of Hell include souls being tormented by fire?

A vision is not a window into a mystical world. We, as human mortals, cannot comprehend the reality of heaven, hell, or anything in the afterlife, so a vision is necessary to convey the importance of fidelity, much as a parable is used to explain a certain meaning.

Keep in mind that the Blessed Mother always looked different in her many apparitions.

 

[Like]

A vision is not a window into a mystical world. We, as human mortals, cannot comprehend the reality of heaven, hell, or anything in the afterlife, so a vision is necessary to convey the importance of fidelity, much as a parable is used to explain a certain meaning.

Keep in mind that the Blessed Mother always looked different in her many apparitions.

What does this have to do with hell having real fire (or not)?

One does not have to believe in the apparition at Fatima, however I do & also believe Sr. Lucia’s description of hell!

Intellectualisms are dangerous. I perceive there’s been a trend to play down Hell post-Vat. II.

It would be wise to assume that:

Hell is terrible;
Hell is the fire that burns yet which does not consume;
Hell is eternal suffering.

… and to make every effort possible to ensure you don’t end up there.

That’s the safest option. If Jesus is not so strict, you’ll have earned a high place in Heaven for your efforts. If Jesus is strict, you’ll still get in.

If slack off because you think Hell is just a concept or a story to frighten peasants then you’re taking a terrible gamble with your soul.

I agree totally with you.

 

[Eucharisted]

As one Latin priest says, in the World to Come, God becomes the Fire that burns, the Fire that purifies, or the Fire that warms.

That’s an Orthodox belief, not a Catholic belief.

I just called the Priest in question, and he told me it was from a conference written by a nun.

Besides, Orthodox don’t believe in Purgatory.

The Orthodox believe everyone will be in fire in the world to come, that everyone goes to God after death, but the blessed will enjoy Him while the damned will suffer. Same Orthodox belief, just saying it differently (and adding Purgatory into it).

Jesus has shown through numerous saints that there is fire in Hell, but no fire in Heaven is ever mentioned in the Bible or in private revelations (Don Bosco, Faustina, etc.).

Since no fire is mentioned in Heaven in Scripture or Tradition, the Church dose not teach that there is fire. But this dosen’t mean you can’t believe there is fire in Heaven - just as you are free to believe whether or not Mary died. However, it would be good to give some very convincing and sound theological reasons for there being fire in Heaven, and whether or not that same fire is the fire that torments the damned and the fire that cleans the holy souls, when you tell others there is fire in Heaven.

 

[Selgi]

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell “eternal fire”. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from Him for ever by our own free choice. This is the state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “Hell”.
reference: Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[AClark]

If anyone says that a man can be justified even after death; or if he says that the punishments of the damned in hell will not last forever; let him be anathema.

How can there still be hope (I think that the doctrine of the Church states that there is always hope) in hell if those who go there are trapped for all eternity?

 

[PetersKeys]

As one Latin priest says, in the World to Come, God becomes the Fire that burns, the Fire that purifies, or the Fire that warms.

That’s an Orthodox belief, not a Catholic belief.

I just called the Priest in question, and he told me it was from a conference written by a nun.

Besides, Orthodox don’t believe in Purgatory.

Wouldn’t that make God present with the souls in Hell? And we find out hell is eternal separation with God. So God cannot be the fire itself since it would cause the damned to be with God.

We see that hell was “prepared” for the devil and his angels. Meaning that God prepared it as His “garbage dump” for the damned. It originally was not supposed to be for humans.

We see in Luke that the rich man is tormented in a flame. And so much so that he asks for a drop of water. As we know, water is an enemy of fire because it extinguishes it. Hence it is some form of fire that makes it known to the damned that they want water to stop the misery.

 

[PetersKeys]

How can there still be hope (I think that the doctrine of the Church states that there is always hope) in hell if those who go there are trapped for all eternity?

These people did have hope, but they threw it away by their own free will.

After the death and judgement comes justice.

The eternity of hell is an infallible declaration by the Church. But prideful people chose not to heed the warnings of the Saints.

 

[distracted]

No one who has not been there can say for certain

i have…

Ok, so i haven’t been to the actual Hell that lasts forever… just seems like it…

I’ve been through some things most people wouldn’t even believe (wouldn’t believe happen in US )…

and i know that a major part of why i went* through* all that was because of my SINS… I didn’t even do anything all that “monstrous” (comparatively speaking) & yet God (and everyone else) is/has been punishing me. God (& life) has been showing me over and over and over how awful sin is… its consequences…

I used to get so angry @ God, i’d literally shake my fist @ Him, and rant and rave and even swear…

Of course, God is big enough to take all that and I realized, more fully, through these “venting sessions” that He really wasn’t/isn’t the cause of all my troubles (any of them…)… and just because He wasn’t using His almighty powers to deliver me from them didn’t mean He didn’t love me … although that is certainly what I’ve FELT here & there throughout the years… but anyway… I just tell myself that there is a lot about God i don’t know & just have to accept on faith… and what the Church has taught me is that its a blessed thing to be able to offer sufferings up for the souls in Purg, for conversions, and for my own expiation (to atone for past sins)…

When i think about this, i see all over again, how awesome the Church is… and I’m so thankful for Her… I used to suffer so much and get no meaning or benefit from those sufferings at all…

that is horrible to me, that people suffer and don’t know to use their sufferings… and get meaning out of them… I know what that feels like…

 

[distracted]

I was wondering if the inferno imagery of hell was actually incorrect. Since God made fire, as he made everything, and since everything God made is good, it would seem to me that no objects are part of hell, and thus hell is a void.

dont’ know if someone already said this but St. Faustina has what i feel is the best description of Hell… i think its #741 of her diary…

She says that the fires of Hell are “lit by God’s anger”… and are a spiritual fire… The agony of Hell is the knowledge / experience of having lost God… and she mentions a lot of other ones: the fact that their condition will not end, etc…

It is the same iwth Purgatory, which i believe she menitons in her Diary as well… the fire is spiritual…

How can a soul NOT be in torment when in the presence of an absolutely HOLY God and forced to deal with one’s sins… against Him…?

 

[Cluny]

So God cannot be the fire itself since it would cause the damned to be with God.

The is precisely the position of THE RIVER OF FIRE.

God will be everything with nothing to distract us from His love or mitigate our experience of Him.

For the saved, it will be bliss. For the damned, it will be torment.

And in either case, it’s because of the condition of their hearts and souls, and how they responded to His grace in this life.

I admit, the fire of hell is eternal. But the only thing (for lack of a better word) that is eternal is God Himself.

 

[giuseppeTO]

One of the most succinct traditional sermons on Hell I have ever heard is this one by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer. It pretty much says it all citing scripture and doctors of the church.

 

[John7]

if damned
then end up in eternal hell fire

if saved
then end up with God who is ‘a consuming fire’ (Deut 4)

 

[distracted]

One of the most succinct traditional sermons on Hell I have ever heard is this one by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer. It pretty much says it all citing scripture and doctors of the church.

one of the things i have the hardest time believing in is the eternity of Hell…

I mean, it is hard for me to imagine God creating a person good (esepcially if the person is made “better” through baptism) and then… the person sins and OK, i understand why he ends up in Hell… but forever???

its the eternity of Hell i still sometimes struggle with… I mean, a parent never stops loving his/her child… you would think that… well… that something could/would happen that would eventually… help the person to get out of Hell… I’m NOT saying i don’t believe in eteranl hell… the sciprture readings for today say “eternal” hellfire…

but my little human mind cannot fully fathom how something God made could end up separated from Him forever & forever in terrible torment…

although i also realize, the longer i live, that … there are many and varied ways in which human beings reject God… or aspects of His ways… and so… wel… I don’t know… I’m just thinking out loud… :coffeeread: