Hell

[Robert_Burns]

cont…

You Excellencies, Cardinals and we priests, when we come to the judgment, Jesus will ask one question. “I made you a priest, a bishop, a cardinal, a pope. How many souls have you saved? How many souls have you saved from Hell?”

The Curé of Ars saved more than 85,000 sinners. How many souls have we saved? When you read the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors of the Church, the Saints, you are struck by one thing: they all preach the Holy gospel of Jesus; Heaven, Purgatory, and they never fail to preach on the Roman Catholic Dogma of Hell.

Read the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors of the Church, all those priests, magnificent apostles of Jesus Christ. They all preach on the Catholic Dogma of Hell because when we meditate on Hell we become a saint.

I don’t want to criticize the bishops, but it is sad for me to say that in my thirty years of priesthood I have never heard a bishop, my bishops or any other bishop, preach on the Roman Catholic Dogma of Hell. I suppose in India and elsewhere they do, but in America, we don’t preach on Hell.
Preach to save souls not to please

In many dioceses I have often heard bishops recite the Rosary, but they decline to add the little Fatima prayer after each decade because “the people don’t like that.”

We are not there preaching to please the crowd but to save souls, to prevent them from going to Hell for all eternity. And I think the little prayer of Our Lady of Fatima given to the children on July 13, 1917, is more powerful and more pleasing to God than any kind of meditation. The meditations that we priests write down and pronounce, they might be nice, but after each decade do you know a meditation more powerful, more holy than the prayer given by Our Lady of Fatima? Please, after each decade, do recite it.

I preach often on Hell. My friends, you have received your catechism, you have received your gifts from God. For me, Jesus wants me, Jesus asks me, Jesus begs me, Our Lady of Fatima begs me to preach Hell.

There are many revelations that we can read in the holy books and some souls in Hell have spoken, given the privilege by God, to help us in our faith. And those souls in Hell say, “We could accept to be in Hell a thousand years. We could accept to be in Hell a million years, if we knew that one day we would leave Hell.”

But no, my friends, we must meditate, not only on the pre-destination of seeing God in Heaven, we must also meditate on the eternity of Hell. I heard a priest in the charismatic conference with about 10,000 laypeople and 300 priests present. He was preaching, “My friends, God is love, God is mercy and you will see His Infinite Mercy at the end of the world, delivering souls from Hell.”

What heresy! Yet his bishop did not remove his faculties, and he was allowed to continue to preach such heresy. With our little human intelligence we make a little “philosophic reasoning”. God is love, God is our Father. How can a loving Father take His little Peter and throw him in to the furnace of Hell? Why that would be an insult to God, Who is love.

How many times have you heard that hypocrisy? My friends, Hell exists. Hell is eternal. I can go into Hell. You can go into Hell. And if God had called me to my eternal reward some years ago, I would have gone to Hell for all eternity, weeping, crying. Not for a million years, not for a thousand million years, but for eternity.

And in gratitude to the Most Holy Trinity, to Our Blessed Mother, I go to Confession every week, I recite my 15 Mysteries of the Rosary every day, my breviary, I wear my Brown Scapular, and I preach the Rosary and the Brown Scapular to everyone. I preach to bishops like I preach to everyone because bishops too have a soul to be saved.

The Lord Jesus has chosen us among men to make us priests for one reason, to offer sacrifice to the Almighty Father and save souls from Hell. When I preach at parish retreats, I always end with the preaching on Hell.
Devotion to the Rosary is a great sign of pre-destination

I am not holy but I pray my Rosary, I wear my Scapular, I say my breviary, seven days a week. I say my Mass every day, I go to confession every week and I hope (I’m not sure, nobody is sure) to go to Heaven.

Nobody is sure unless they have a private revelation from God. Why not take all insurance Our Lady of Fatima has given us: “Devotion to My Rosary is a great sign of pre-destination.”

She has given us another insurance, “that anyone dying in this habit [the Brown Scapular] shall not suffer eternal fire.”

If only one bishop among you would come to Fatima and go back to his diocese and beseech his people, “I am your bishop. I am here to save your souls from Hell. Please accept my teaching today, listen to my teaching today. Meditate on my teaching today. And please, my priests, imitate your bishop, preach on Hell.”

If only you would do this, you will be doing the greatest act of charity of your priesthood, of your episcopal apostolate.

Preach Hell and Jesus will bless you, Jesus will forgive you your weakness, Jesus will forgive your sins if you do preach Hell. By preaching Hell, you are making a terrific act of charity because those that will hear you, they will believe, they will change their lives and they will go to Confession.

Saints go to confession, Saints go to confession! And those that go to confession frequently become Saints.

And THAT was exactly what I was looking for !!! Fantastic Post. And thank you for it.

 

[At_Trent]

And THAT was exactly what I was looking for !!! Fantastic Post. And thank you for it.

Quite welcome, here are a couple of others

olrl.org/doctrine/came_back.shtml

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[Robert_Burns]

No problem, and thanks

The fact people think “there’s no one in Hell” only reinforces my theory that there’s no such things as new heresies. I mean, seriously.

I swear this day and age all the old heresies are coming back, they’re just coming back all at once. Things like opponents to celibacy (heresy), opponents to Marriage (heresy), there is no Hell (heresy), anti-clericalism (heresy), clericalism elitism (heresy), “new” age hocus pocus garbage, and much much more…all things covered centuries ago.

I completely agree - and I think it was Pope St Pius the X who called “Modernism” the Synthesis of all Heresies. Maybe elements of it are plaguing us to this day.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I completely agree - and I think it was Pope St Pius the X who called “Modernism” the Synthesis of all Heresies. Maybe elements of it are plaguing us to this day.

Wow–I can’t believe that people would honestly think there is no hell! Especially a Catholic.

It’s like my saying there is no ocean because I don’t see one currently…doesn’t stop one from being there.

SCARY

 

[TMC]

TMC, universal salvation, that is that no one at all ever has, is in, or will go to Hell, is a condemned heresy.

‘Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and **few **there are that find it!’

Matthew 7:13-14

I don’t know that universal salvation has ever been declared a heresy. I would find it odd if it were, given that we are told to pray for it, and taught that it is possible. See for example, CCC 1058.

What I do know is that what I posted is true–throughout our history many Cathoics, including Saints and Fathers of the Church have believed in universal salvation. I am not saying that they did not believe that Hell is real or possible, what I am saying is that they believed that, in the end, God would save all from Hell. The question posed was whether Catholics believe this. The answer is, yes, many do.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I don’t know that universal salvation has ever been declared a heresy. I would find it odd if it were, given that we are told to pray for it, and taught that it is possible. See for example, CCC 1058.

What I do know is that what I posted is true–throughout our history many Cathoics, including Saints and Fathers of the Church have believed in universal salvation. I am not saying that they did not believe that Hell is real or possible, what I am saying is that they believed that, in the end, God would save all from Hell. The question posed was whether Catholics believe this. The answer is, yes, many do.

A Scary Thought indeed…That anyone would believe that.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I don’t know that universal salvation has ever been declared a heresy. I would find it odd if it were, given that we are told to pray for it, and taught that it is possible. See for example, CCC 1058.

What I do know is that what I posted is true–throughout our history many Cathoics, including Saints and Fathers of the Church have believed in universal salvation. I am not saying that they did not believe that Hell is real or possible, what I am saying is that they believed that, in the end, God would save all from Hell. The question posed was whether Catholics believe this. The answer is, yes, many do.

The Belief is known as Apocatastasis and the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543;

 

[Layman]

If there’s even a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001% chance you could go to Hell, the smart move is to fly from all sin and seek sanctification.

I really hate that weasel phrase “We don’t know if anyone is in Hell”. That, plus today’s ‘Buddy Jesus’ mentality, makes people dangerously easy-going.

 

[Melchior_1]

I don’t know that universal salvation has ever been declared a heresy. I would find it odd if it were, given that we are told to pray for it, and taught that it is possible. See for example, CCC 1058.

What I do know is that what I posted is true–throughout our history many Cathoics, including Saints and Fathers of the Church have believed in universal salvation. I am not saying that they did not believe that Hell is real or possible, what I am saying is that they believed that, in the end, God would save all from Hell. The question posed was whether Catholics believe this. The answer is, yes, many do.

Scripture is very clear on this matter; the wide road is the road most often taken. And Jesus used a parable which depicted a man in Hell.

Everyone in this thread doesn’t want people to go to Hell. I don’t want to go there! But the reality is it would be foolish to think that all are saved from Hell. Wait…did I just say “saved”? Hmph.

I’d love to see some documents from Early Church Fathers that say “no one is in Hell” or “God saves us all from Hell”. I know they speak of God’s Mercy and what not, but I’ve never seen anyone say “no one is going to Hell”.

And after all, the Fathers know best. So they should have the answers.

 

[Melchior_1]

If there’s even a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001% chance you could go to Hell, the smart move is to fly from all sin and seek sanctification

You mean get the hell away from sin?

I really hate that weasel phrase “We don’t know if anyone is in Hell”. That, plus today’s ‘Buddy Jesus’ mentality, makes people dangerously easy-going.

Like I said before, I don’t know any SPECIFIC people who are in Hell, I’m not one to judge others (that’s God’s call). But we do know there’s got to be a few people there (if we go by Scripture sadly the number is many).

Basically; there’s people in Hell. Just don’t know who they are.

 

[TMC]

The Belief is known as Apocatastasis and the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543;

As I understand it, Apocatastasis is somewhat different than the belief that all may be saved. Apocatastasis is the belief that a new era is to come when all creatures are necessarily saved. I believe you are correct that it was pronounced anathema at an early council. But there is no bar to believing that all may be saved, and that God will save all of us. That is somewhat different than believing that all are necessarily saved.

Regardless, it is certainly true that the Church currently teaches that God desires all to be saved and that it is possible that all will be saved.

 

[TMC]

Scripture is very clear on this matter; the wide road is the road most often taken. And Jesus used a parable which depicted a man in Hell.

Everyone in this thread doesn’t want people to go to Hell. I don’t want to go there! But the reality is it would be foolish to think that all are saved from Hell. Wait…did I just say “saved”? Hmph.

I’d love to see some documents from Early Church Fathers that say “no one is in Hell” or “God saves us all from Hell”. I know they speak of God’s Mercy and what not, but I’ve never seen anyone say “no one is going to Hell”.

And after all, the Fathers know best. So they should have the answers.

If you search on the terms "universal salvation’ and either “Church Fathers,” “Origen” or “Gregory of Nyssa” you will find plenty of material. As with all such endeavors, beware of the sources and make sure you know what you reading, but their early writings unambigously support their belief that all would eventually be saved.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

If there’s even a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001% chance you could go to Hell, the smart move is to fly from all sin and seek sanctification.

I really hate that weasel phrase “We don’t know if anyone is in Hell”. That, plus today’s ‘Buddy Jesus’ mentality, makes people dangerously easy-going.

and very much like some protestant denominations…you know once saved, always saved…seems like peace…but a FALSE peace.

Been there, done that…

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

If you search on the terms "universal salvation’ and either “Church Fathers,” “Origen” or “Gregory of Nyssa” you will find plenty of material. As with all such endeavors, beware of the sources and make sure you know what you reading, but their early writings unambigously support their belief that all would eventually be saved.

You seem to be correct about those two Fathers, one of which is canonized. I would suggest that one can also find in the writings of Pope John Paul II a strong tendency towards universalism. Whereas the earlier teachers approached it from a view that perceived evil to be purged in fires commensurate to the sins and evil inhering in the soul, Pope John Paul seemed to arrive at the possibility of universal salvation from an angle that perceives all souls to be redeemed by virtue of the Incarnation of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit:

This is what we are told by St. Paul, whose cosmic and theological vision seems to repeat the words of the ancient Psalm: creation “waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God,” that is, those whom God has “foreknown” and whom he “has predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” Thus there is a supernatural “adoption,” of which the source is the Holy Spirit, love and gift. As such he is given to man. And in the superabundance of the uncreated gift there begins in the heart of all human beings that particular created gift whereby they “become partakers of the divine nature.” Thus human life becomes permeated, through participation, by the divine life, and itself acquires a divine, supernatural dimension.

—Dominum et vivificantem, 52

…what is in question here is man in all his truth, in his full magnitude. We are not dealing with the “abstract” man, but the real, “concrete”, “historical” man. We are dealing with “each” man,** for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself for ever** through this mystery. Every man comes into the world through being conceived in his mother’s womb and being born of his mother, and precisely on account of the mystery of the Redemption is entrusted to the solicitude of the Church…Man as “willed” by God, as “chosen” by him from eternity and called, destined for grace and glory-this is “each” man, “the most concrete” man, “the most real”; this is man in all the fullness of the mystery in which he has become a sharer in Jesus Christ, the mystery in which each one of the four thousand million human beings living on our planet has become a sharer from the moment he is conceived beneath the heart of his mother.

—Redemptor Hominis 13

It seems to me that the theories of Origen and St. Gregory fail to explain how, after the fires of purgatory, a soul is supernatural, endowed with grace, that wasn’t before. John Paul II however explains how every human soul is partaker of the divine nature, each one of the four thousand million (at that time) were sharers in Christ from conception. It is very interesting, and I would say compelling, if it were compatible with Catholic Tradition.

I do not think this optimistic view of the state of every human soul from the moment of conception can be reconciled with the teaching of the Church either. But If one is already inclined to the universalist views of Origen and probably St. Gregory, John Paul’s writings provide a tentative answer to the objections I would raise regarding the difficulty involved when the theology of the Church requires that to enjoy the Beatific Vision, it is not adequate to be merely in a sinless state of nature. Human nature must be elevated to the supernatural, either through the Sacraments, or as John Paul suggests, through human conception. He appears to be saying that by virtue of the Incarnation of Christ, each human being is conceived in a state of grace. What he does not address is the question of mortal sin. Even if his theory were true, does the Church not teach that human souls can fall from grace unto a state of nature through mortal sin?

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Also…Pope John Paul’s theory could not account for the salvation of the devil and the fallen angels. It would be strictly limited to mankind, since Christ as Redeemer became a man, taking on the nature of men, not of angels. I am not sure if Gregory proposed that Hell eventually redeemed the fallen angels, but I was thinking Origen held that eventually, all creation would be redeemed and Hell would be emptied.

 

[Acolythus_sum]

That belief is PRECISELY WHY Origen is not canonized! His belief in universal salvation (which is also, then, belief in predestination) is incompatible with the teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in that (as the above quote from S. Augustine’s City of God attests) it holds that Hell is temporal, not eternal. This is disproved in Sacred Scripture (1 Jn 3:14-15):

He that loves not abides in death. 15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in himself.

The logic here should be obvious. Either Heaven and Hell are both eternal, or neither are. But we know that Heaven is the Beatific Vision, the perfect expression of the Presence of God. As God is eternal, we must then believe that Heaven, as the perfect expression of His Presence, will also be eternal. Thus, as we have already reasoned, Heaven and Hell both must be eternal. Also consider the Church’s teaching on Purgatory: Why would Hell be necessary, if it so closely would mimic the definition of Purgatory as a temporal place of punishment? Also, Sacred Tradition attests to the truth of this (CCC 1033):

Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice.

Holy Mother Church has never declared anyone to be in Hell on account of the words of Christ (Matt. 7:1-2):

Judge not, that you may not be judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

It is clear from this and other sources that judgement is reserved to God alone. To claim that all souls are saved at the end of time, the Final Judgement, may seem fitting to His infinite love. However, another aspect of God must be considered: that of His infinite justice. His all-love and all-justice cannot be incompatible (see Aquinas’ Shorter Summa, S. Thomas Aquinas, ch. 9, 20, & 23), as that would deny the unity of His Divine Being. Then we must consider both these aspects of God together. As He is all-loving, He must want what is best for those whom He loves. Thus, He desires all those whom He loves to be with Him forever in Heaven, where they will be eternally happy. However, He also has infinite justice. He will give to all souls what they most desired in life: to the Saints, Heaven and the Beatific Vision of His glory; to those who sought other goods above the Highest Good, what also they most desired, which, unfortunately, is not Him. The only option besides Heaven is Hell. It is OUR choice, not God’s. He respects our free will, His gift to us, to the very end. But He still loves us, as we know that without Him nothing exists. He loves all Creation, even to the depths of Hell.

If I ascend into heaven, you are there: if I descend into hell, you are present. (Ps. 139:8)

This presence of God in Hell is not to be seen to nullify one of the chief torments of Hell, separation from God. It speaks to the fact He is present everywhere, even though those in mortal sin have closed themselves off from His Presence by free will. We know that without His Presence, nothing can exist.

As far as I know, by the teaching of Holy Mother Church, Hell may indeed be empty. As was stated above, that judgement is reserved to God alone. Taking that upon ourselves would be presumption of the highest gravity. However, in mystical writings and otherwise, all throughout Church history, (see the above story from Fatima, a Marian apparition approved for veneration by the Holy See) there have been visions of Hell complete with suffering souls. As has been proved, this is eternal suffering–eternal damnation.

*Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen. * (Roman Canon [Eucharistic Prayer I])

Therefore, Lord, we pray: graciously accept this oblation of our service, that of your whole family; order our days in your peace, and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation and counted among the flock of those you have chosen. (Roman Canon, new translation)

 

[TMC]

You seem to be correct about those two Fathers, one of which is canonized. I would suggest that one can also find in the writings of Pope John Paul II a strong tendency towards universalism. Whereas the earlier teachers approached it from a view that perceived evil to be purged in fires commensurate to the sins and evil inhering in the soul, Pope John Paul seemed to arrive at the possibility of universal salvation from an angle that perceives all souls to be redeemed by virtue of the Incarnation of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit:—Dominum et vivificantem, 52

—Redemptor Hominis 13

It seems to me that the theories of Origen and St. Gregory fail to explain how, after the fires of purgatory, a soul is supernatural, endowed with grace, that wasn’t before. John Paul II however explains how every human soul is partaker of the divine nature, each one of the four thousand million (at that time) were sharers in Christ from conception. It is very interesting, and I would say compelling, if it were compatible with Catholic Tradition.

I do not think this optimistic view of the state of every human soul from the moment of conception can be reconciled with the teaching of the Church either. But If one is already inclined to the universalist views of Origen and probably St. Gregory, John Paul’s writings provide a tentative answer to the objections I would raise regarding the difficulty involved when the theology of the Church requires that to enjoy the Beatific Vision, it is not adequate to be merely in a sinless state of nature. Human nature must be elevated to the supernatural, either through the Sacraments, or as John Paul suggests, through human conception. He appears to be saying that by virtue of the Incarnation of Christ, each human being is conceived in a state of grace. What he does not address is the question of mortal sin. Even if his theory were true, does the Church not teach that human souls can fall from grace unto a state of nature through mortal sin?

How is John Paul’s belief that all souls partake in the divine nature incompatible with Catholic Tradition? That is what the Church has always taught, consistent with Scripture and Tradition. From CCC 460:

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

 

[Robert_Burns]

If you search on the terms "universal salvation’ and either “Church Fathers,” “Origen” or “Gregory of Nyssa” you will find plenty of material. As with all such endeavors, beware of the sources and make sure you know what you reading, but their early writings unambigously support their belief that all would eventually be saved.

Granted - I am aware of the Theory - however - you likewise can read St Jerome - St Augustine - St Cyril of Jerusalem - Tertullian - and St John Chrysostom to find the oppposing view. . So to your point - is it possible - sure its possible if Light of JPII and his Catechism , Urs Von Balthazar and others which has been so stated - but very unlikely. in light of Scriptural Exegesis as pointed out earlier by Melchior and others. . And Apocatastasis is the Theory forwarded by St Gregory of Nyssa and Origen rather than Universal Salvation prior to the Council in 581.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

So to your point - is it possible - sure its possible if Light of JPII and his Catechism , Urs Von Balthazar and others which has been so stated - but very unlikely.

Just a quick note of response to this. I do not think that Christian charity lends itself to a contemplation of likelihoods or probabilities regarding the salvation of a soul. Our hope is not about spiritual risk/benefit analysis. Whether or not the salvation of a particular soul is likely has no bearing on its possibility. And the possibility, which is a sign of grace, is the thing in which we rejoice and in which we place our hope, not a likelihood. I think that if one hopes that hell is empty, but then qualifies the hope by saying that an empty hell is unlikely, then hope in this context becomes merely rhetorical.

We do not need to believe that hell is either crowded or empty, but I believe charity will urge us to hope for the latter.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Robert_Burns]

Grace & Peace!

Just a quick note of response to this. I do not think that Christian charity lends itself to a contemplation of likelihoods or probabilities regarding the salvation of a soul. Our hope is not about spiritual risk/benefit analysis. Whether or not the salvation of a particular soul is likely has no bearing on its possibility. And the possibility, which is a sign of grace, is the thing in which we rejoice and in which we place our hope, not a likelihood. I think that if one hopes that hell is empty, but then qualifies the hope by saying that an empty hell is unlikely, then hope in this context becomes merely rhetorical.

We do not need to believe that hell is either crowded or empty, but I believe charity will urge us to hope for the latter.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Agreed. Unles we discuss this subject from the paradigm of Salvation - it is uncharitable. There is no way around that. Great point. And that is precisely its value as a deterrant. If the threat of damnation for eternity has relevance to the common Layperson - but if the pains and torment are used to coerce people or even in some cases overused and possible lead to despair in some people - then has the Dogma been used as GOD intended? In charity? The greatest thing about the Faith and about the Dogma of Hell , in my opinion - is the fact that the Church Preaches that no one is tempted beyond their strength. That by conforming ones will to the Will of GOD and using ones Free Will properly by coorperating with the Grace GOD sends - we all can avoid both Purgatory and Hell. It is consoling to know that GOD does not wish for anyone to be condemned.

Great post Mark and thank you for it