Hell

[skinny_pumpkin]

Allow me an analogy. Think of depression. Some depressed people are surrounded by love, family friends etc., but they can’t see in themselves what others see in them; they can’t accept it.

I personally can’t imagine the shame of being “naked” in front of Christ. It is scary. I can certainly understand the need to flee, just being blown away, lost in my pride, amongst a whole lot of other things.

It is really scary. More frightening than the atonement views put forth by Anselm. How can one change their “disposition” ? Certainly not by their own will: only by grace. Acetic living is only a free will reach for this grace and a humbling towards God.

Once you honestly look at yourself, you realize how deeply entrenched the problem is. The kingdom of heaven is within you, but so is the kingdom of hell. Once you internalize it, it becomes the most frightening thing you can imagine.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Allow me an analogy. Think of depression. Some depressed people are surrounded by love, family friends etc., but they can’t see in themselves what others see in them; they can’t accept it.

I personally can’t imagine the shame of being “naked” in front of Christ. It is scary. I can certainly understand the need to flee, just being blown away, lost in my pride, amongst a whole lot of other things.

It is really scary. More frightening than the atonement views put forth by Anselm. How can one change their “disposition” ? Certainly not by their own will: only by grace. Acetic living is only a free will reach for this grace and a humbling towards God.

Once you honestly look at yourself, you realize how deeply entrenched the problem is. The kingdom of heaven is within you, but so is the kingdom of hell. Once you internalize it, it becomes the most frightening thing you can imagine.

Which makes the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee in Luke 18 take on new meaning in a spiritual sense doesnt it. How many today approach Almighty GOD like the Pharisee because they dont approach him with that internal knowledge of self that you so richly described.

Well stated.

 

[Shin]

Which makes the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee in Luke 18 take on new meaning in a spiritual sense doesnt it. How many today approach Almighty GOD like the Pharisee because they dont approach him with that internal knowledge of self that you so richly described.

Well stated.

Makes me think the words, 'Humility is truth… ’

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Similarly, God knows what we have done, what we are doing and what we will do, because He sees it all. He has made us free to choose good or evil, and has said He will judge us based on the choices we make.

Yes I know that but please look back to what I quoted for a moment. I agree that whatever you know of today is a result of yesterday. Today is the effect of yesterday’s cause. However, when you say “foreseen sins” you are not just predicting the effects but the cause as well.

For instance, suppose a fanatical seer were to say I would steal the heart of a consecrated virgin. What if I did not want to do that and avoid all means by which I could commit such a grave offense? If my sin is “foreseen” then such efforts would be futile no? It then logically follows that the same can go for the effect.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Yes I know that but please look back to what I quoted for a moment. I agree that whatever you know of today is a result of yesterday. Today is the effect of yesterday’s cause. However, when you say “foreseen sins” you are not just predicting the effects but the cause as well.

For instance, suppose a fanatical seer were to say I would steal the heart of a consecrated virgin. What if I did not want to do that and avoid all means by which I could commit such a grave offense? If my sin is “foreseen” then such efforts would be futile no? It then logically follows that the same can go for the effect.

God is not limited to this present moment of His creation. What seems like a prediction to us, who are caught up in the story unfolding around us, is certain knowledge to God, Who knows the story from beginning to end.

But knowledge does not mean control, as we agreed. God gives us free will and his help, if we will accept it, so that we can avoid sin, grow in holiness and at the end of our days enter His kingdom. We are His children, not His puppets.

I believe that if the word of God were to come were to come to you, warning you of some future sin, then its purpose would be to bring you to repentance, and perhaps to avoid the sin altogether. Sometimes the prophecies of the Lord do not come to pass, not because of the ignorance of the Lord or His prophets, but because those warned listen, humble their hearts, and repent (see for example the story of Jonah the reluctant prophet to Nineveh).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I believe that if the word of God were to come were to come to you, warning you of some future sin, then its purpose would be to bring you to repentance, and perhaps to avoid the sin altogether. Sometimes the prophecies of the Lord do not come to pass, not because of the ignorance of the Lord or His prophets, but because those warned listen, humble their hearts, and repent (see for example the story of Jonah the reluctant prophet to Nineveh).

Well the in that case, Ludwig Ott is wrong. God does not necessarily predestine anyone to sin. The choice is still up to us right? We can choose to sin or not. You cannot foretell someone is doomed to commit a grave sin yet think he can change his fate. Otherwise, such prophecy would not be set in stone.

 

[Onegin]

It seems like some of the quotes miss the mark and confuse omnipotence with predestination. If we accept that a) God is truly omnipotent and b) we have free will to choose to sin or not, then we have to conclude that, first, God has a “perfect” plan for us and a “permissive” plan and, secondly, that we can choose which to follow. The first comes to fruition if we follow His divine plan (which leads, necessarily towards salvation and sainthood) and the second comes to fruition when we make our own choices using our free will that are not in accordance with the perfect will. Either way, being omnipotent, God knows what will result either way but He does not ‘intervene’ in the sense that He destines us to either the perfect or permissive path - we choose that.

Hope that helps a bit in clarifying the so-called “predestination” issue. Catholics reject the Calvinist view of there being a special group of “elect” who are going to go to Heaven no matter what. We all exercise free will when it comes to eternal salvation (and damnation).

 

[Robert_Burns]

It seems like some of the quotes miss the mark and confuse omnipotence with predestination. If we accept that a) God is truly omnipotent and b) we have free will to choose to sin or not, then we have to conclude that, first, God has a “perfect” plan for us and a “permissive” plan and, secondly, that we can choose which to follow. The first comes to fruition if we follow His divine plan (which leads, necessarily towards salvation and sainthood) and the second comes to fruition when we make our own choices using our free will that are not in accordance with the perfect will. Either way, being omnipotent, God knows what will result either way but He does not ‘intervene’ in the sense that He destines us to either the perfect or permissive path - we choose that.

Hope that helps a bit in clarifying the so-called “predestination” issue. Catholics reject the Calvinist view of there being a special group of “elect” who are going to go to Heaven no matter what. We all exercise free will when it comes to eternal salvation (and damnation).

To add to what you have stated - why does GOD do this? GOD wants our love. To me thats the bottom line. And he wants our love to come from us without coersion by him. to be freely given by us of our own free will. When you meditate on that concept - and think in terms of GOD’s Omnipotence - to me it makes total sense because despite the fact that GOD can do all things - there is onme thing he cannot do - and that is to be loved by his creatures of their own free will. He cannot create that because if he attempted to - it would no longer be of the creatures free will. That love from us to GOD has got to be given with no strings attached for it to please GOD. Now add to that concept of why Hell exists and why GOD gives man enough grace so that hje cannot be tempted beyond his strength or that GOD even allows some people to doom themselves - because if he interfered their love would not be purely given. Any comments on that concept anyone?

 

[MMprn]

I firmly believe we send ourselves to hell. When we go before the all loving Judge it is we who judge ourselves. If we go before the all loving God unrepentant, we judge ourselves. If we go before the all loving God, fully aware of our sinfullness and with sincere repentance, we judge ourselves.
I was taught God’s mercy is before we die. God’s judgment is after we die. Our respective dispositions, unrepentant or repentant, is accepted or rejected, either come or depart.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Well the in that case, Ludwig Ott is wrong. God does not necessarily predestine anyone to sin. The choice is still up to us right? We can choose to sin or not. You cannot foretell someone is doomed to commit a grave sin yet think he can change his fate. Otherwise, such prophecy would not be set in stone.

The choice is definitely up to us. But I don’t think Ludwig Ott was saying that God predestines anyone to sin. In fact the Lord offers grace to all to avoid sin, but not all accept His help. God knows who will resist His grace, and for those sinners who remain unrepentant to the end of their life, God ordains “eternal rejection”. If they had chosen differently, God would have blessed them with a better fate.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The choice is definitely up to us. But I don’t think Ludwig Ott was saying that God predestines anyone to sin. In fact the Lord offers grace to all to avoid sin, but not all accept His help. God knows who will resist His grace, and for those sinners who remain unrepentant to the end of their life, God ordains “eternal rejection”. If they had chosen differently, God would have blessed them with a better fate.

Yes that is reasonable position. However, I can tell you that anybody reading Ott’s quote in Shin’s post will definitely not reach that conclusion. Seriously, it just screams predestination.

 

[PAboy57]

I believe there is absolutely a hell. The best trick for all of history is the devil convincing people there isn’t a hell.

If we open ourselves up to God’s grace we can avoid this disaster. We send ourselves there by ignoring the teaching of Jesus.

The only hypothetical question I wonder about is “the man was holy his whole life and made 1 mortal mistake just before an instant death, does he go to hell?”

I think our whole life is judged by the Creator and a moment of severe sin will not necessarily separate one from Heaven. He may spend the rest of “time” in purgatory but he won’t be sent to hell.

Then again I think the whole hypothetical question isn’t realistic because I don’t see a man being holy his whole life making that 1 mistake.

So you better believe there is a hell. We send ourselves there by living a life of sin and ignoring God. Repent honestly and you will spend all eternity with the Lord.

 

[Robert_Burns]

The choice is definitely up to us. But I don’t think Ludwig Ott was saying that God predestines anyone to sin. In fact the Lord offers grace to all to avoid sin, but not all accept His help. God knows who will resist His grace, and for those sinners who remain unrepentant to the end of their life, God ordains “eternal rejection”. If they had chosen differently, God would have blessed them with a better fate.

Well said - The sins against the Holy Ghost are commonly said to be six in number: despair, presumption, impenitence, obstinacy, resisting truth, and envy of another’s spiritual welfare. This would follow the reasoning in your post.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I believe there is absolutely a hell. The best trick for all of history is the devil convincing people there isn’t a hell.

If we open ourselves up to God’s grace we can avoid this disaster. We send ourselves there by ignoring the teaching of Jesus.

The only hypothetical question I wonder about is “the man was holy his whole life and made 1 mortal mistake just before an instant death, does he go to hell?”

I think our whole life is judged by the Creator and a moment of severe sin will not necessarily separate one from Heaven. He may spend the rest of “time” in purgatory but he won’t be sent to hell.

Then again I think the whole hypothetical question isn’t realistic because I don’t see a man being holy his whole life making that 1 mistake.

So you better believe there is a hell. We send ourselves there by living a life of sin and ignoring God. Repent honestly and you will spend all eternity with the Lord.

Theoretically we are taught that the gravity of one mortal sin will send us to hell. Certainly no one wants to think that one sin can send us to Hell. But I think the key phrase in your argument is "1 mortal mistake ". By saying mortal - you imply it is serious enough to destroy all sanctifying grace in our soul and if that is the case then yes - the person would go to Hell. But keep in mind - all the aspects have to be present for the sin to be mortal. The person has to have the conscience choice of right and wrong , full knowledge and consent to do good and avoid evil or to choose evil and defy GOD’s Law. So the gravity of the sin itself that you have described as being “Mortal” justifies the damnation.

And keep in mind - the citeria for the “Mortal sin” is judged by the parameters of GOD revealed to Man through grace and the church - not men solely. The gravity of mortal sin cannot be stressed enough. Mortal sin is open definance of Almighty GOD. Many people were struck down in the Scriptures for acts such as these. Onan for example. Or Ananias and Saphira for example. Commiting a mortal sin is serious business. Being forgiven is not always guaranteed.

Pax