Hell

[royalt]

This is my first thread so please place criticism where necessary.

I have a friend who has converted from Protestant Southern Baptist to Universal Salvation. I am not to sure if many of you have heard of it. It is the belief that everyone is going to heaven at some point. They base most of their belief in the scriptures of St. Paul. Any way we have had many conversations on the topic of salvation and hell. I tell him if he is right and I am wrong then then no big deal because in your faith then we are all going to heaven but if I am right and your wrong then you aren’t going to the happy place. Any way during our conversations I have found some things he says to throw some doubt on the Christian teaching of hell. Essentially their idea of hell is a cleansing not a punishment. But we have talked about the difference between the relativism of mankind and the absoluteness of God. He asked a conceptual question that I would like the forum members to maybe look at and comment on.

Let say there are a 100 people in the world and 99 go to heaven and one goes to hell. In the human understanding of things that seems to be a victory for God. 1 out of a 100 isn’t too bad. But since God doesn’t deal in the relative, what does it mean to God if one soul is lost to hell? For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

Looking forward to your replies

 

[MichaelHowling]

No, the temptation of the apple overpowered the free will of a person…Gods santifying grace freely given by Jesus’s sacrifice triumphs over ALL evil and sin and was offered to that individual…they just chose not to accept it.

Which means: God 100 / Devil 0

 

[royalt]

Michael,

Thanks for the reply. While I do believe in free will, I would ask; Then what in that person lead them to chose sin over grace ? Is it a weak constitution, exposure to materialism, lack of exposure to Religion or Faith, environmental up bringing, traumatic event as a child, drug abuse, etc. ? Are these things that can cause a person to chose worldly possessions over the Grace of God. Even though the person knows right from wrong, what causes them to chose the temptation of the Devil over the Love of God ?

“God 100/ Devil 0” ?

But didn’t God lose a soul, which is His creation, to the Devil.

 

[MichaelHowling]

The allure of sin, concupisence set in man from the stain of original sin ( a wounded human nature).

On Freedom of the Will the Catechism no. 1730 says, "God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him "

by cleaving to him , recieving grace for spiritual growth and help

 

[Mike30]

Michael,

Thanks for the reply. While I do believe in free will, I would ask; Then what in that person lead them to chose sin over grace ? Is it a weak constitution, exposure to materialism, lack of exposure to Religion or Faith, environmental up bringing, traumatic event as a child, drug abuse, etc. ? Are these things that can cause a person to chose worldly possessions over the Grace of God. Even though the person knows right from wrong, what causes them to chose the temptation of the Devil over the Love of God ?

“God 100/ Devil 0” ?

But didn’t God lose a soul, which is His creation, to the Devil.

People by and large think in the here and now. I want this,(insert what you want,money, drugs, sex, fame etc.) and I will do whatever I have to do in order to get it. Add to that demonic influence and our inclination to sin anyway, and you have a fertile field for evil to grow in. And in all honesty, there are simply evil people people in the world to do evil for evils sake alone. Who can say why?

I am positive that God has lost souls to the Devil, and always has. The decision to commit sin is solely ours. God will not make up our minds for us and the Devil, as powerful as he is, cannot do so. The choice you make for evil or for good is yours and yours alone.

Free will. Our greatest blessing and perhaps our greatest curse.

 

[wanabesaint]

well, pergatory is the cleansing place, Heaven is to be with God where their is no imperfection, and thats the reason for Pergatory, and that we come to pray for those of that they might be released. as is confession…
Hell is that of permenant seperation from God…
Presumption that we are going to Heaven is a sin in itself.

Many a early Christain came to not deny God, but rather accept death instead in the persecution of early Christians.

and in recognition of that, its not acceptable then that current christian community churchs accept that you can deny God, and yet expect to be with God.

they are saying, the early Catholics were nuts, they should have denied Jesus, and his New Covenant.

 

[earl40]

For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

Looking forward to your replies

The short answer is no, the power of the apple cannot overpower the sacrifice of the cross. God gets what He wants and that includes every sinner Jesus died for. The life and death of Jesus accomplishes what it set out to do.

 

[earl40]

No, the temptation of the apple overpowered the free will of a person…Gods santifying grace freely given by Jesus’s sacrifice triumphs over ALL evil and sin and was offered to that individual…they just chose not to accept it.

Which means: God 100 / Devil 0

So tell me does that include the sin of those that do not “accept” Him? That is God zero and man one. The math just does not add up.

 

[MichaelHowling]

No…man would be at -1 actually.

Lol… I was not doing a math problem I was simply trying to say that God’s will is always done and the cross sets out what it was supposed to do.

 

[johnnyjones]

It makes no sense to put percentages on eternal destinations. That is man getting his hands into things he has no business with. Let God sought it out.

 

[earl40]

No…man would be at -1 actually.

Lol… I was not doing a math problem I was simply trying to say that God’s will is always done and the cross sets out what it was supposed to do.

I agree God and His will is always done. What most do not recognize is that God has 2 wills. One will is what we SHOULD do the other will is what we WILL do. So if Jesus died for someone (which BTW Jesus said was the Fathers will) they will be saved. The notion of free will most believe in is not a biblical reality.

 

[earl40]

It makes no sense to put percentages on eternal destinations. That is man getting his hands into things he has no business with. Let God sought it out.

It is a fact that the way to destruction is broad and it is many who go that way. Hows is that for some biblical percentages?

 

[MichaelHowling]

Earl, what are you talking about…

Of course free will is biblical " Two ways I set before you oh man the path to life and the path to death. Therefore CHOOSE life"

And God does not have 2 wills…that’s ridiculous. Where is that biblical ?

God wills things and we have our own personal free will.

 

[earl40]

Earl, what are you talking about…

Of course free will is biblical " Two ways I set before you oh man the path to life and the path to death. Therefore CHOOSE life"

And God does not have 2 wills…that’s ridiculous. Where is that biblical ?

God wills things and we have our own personal free will.

So if God does not have 2 wills tell me if God willed or wanted Judas to betray Jesus? God did indeed will Judas to do such. He decreed it and He would not decree what He did not want to happen. This is called the decretive will of God.

The prescriptive will is what Judas SHOULD NOT have done.

Most Christians are afraid to venture into this…which includes RC or Protestant, To not do so leaves God and His will ineffective in His sovereign rein on earth. One must differentiate the difference in the wills of God to understand the bible.

 

[PJM]

=royalt;10244914]This is my first thread so please place criticism where necessary.

I have a friend who has converted from Protestant Southern Baptist to Universal Salvation. I am not to sure if many of you have heard of it. It is the belief that everyone is going to heaven at some point. They base most of their belief in the scriptures of St. Paul. Any way we have had many conversations on the topic of salvation and hell. I tell him if he is right and I am wrong then then no big deal because in your faith then we are all going to heaven but if I am right and your wrong then you aren’t going to the happy place. Any way during our conversations I have found some things he says to throw some doubt on the Christian teaching of hell. Essentially their idea of hell is a cleansing not a punishment. But we have talked about the difference between the relativism of mankind and the absoluteness of God. He asked a conceptual question that I would like the forum members to maybe look at and comment on.

Let say there are a 100 people in the world and 99 go to heaven and one goes to hell. In the human understanding of things that seems to be a victory for God. 1 out of a 100 isn’t too bad. But since God doesn’t deal in the relative, what does it mean to God if one soul is lost to hell? For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

Looking forward to your replies

As asked:

Yes and in an absoulete sense it MUST BE. Why?

Let’s start here:**Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21: **“every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my [POSSIBLE] glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” the key word being “might”. Can choose to or not too.

Allow me to explain what this mans and its signifiance to your “Q”

God did not have to Create the Universe to be happy

God did NOT have to create man

The Universe was created exclusively for man; that man **COULD **know of God

Among the BILLIONS of created things; only One; only can and does emulate God Himself.

Only man has a mind, intellect. and freewill attached to our Souls. Each of these things LIKE God Himself are spiritual and eternal things. Only man can choose to love or hate. Therefoe man has this as the reason for our existence.

It is in the fact that man alone can choose to love or hate God that demands from God a Just and Fair responce.

Because man alone can make good and bad choices God absoutely must jusge man based on the choices he makes.

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

God is Perfect so God absoutely must be Fair and Just.

What I shared is Biblical and logical. What is the foundation for your friends beliefs?

**Here’s the Simple truth:

There is only One God**

Therefore that One God can have only one set of Faith beliefs. It is impossible for God to hold contradictory opinions on the same precise issue. Only fiilish men can do that.

God Bless you; great post.

 

[earl40]

Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

So now you have a choice to what is greater…the sin of men overpowering the life and death of Jesus and His mercy (men’s free will over His will)…and the life and death of Jesus overpowering the sin of men (The Gospel).

It really is that simple, choose wisely and may God grant you the grace to trust in Him alone for your standing before Him.

 

[MichaelHowling]

In regards to #14…

No. God is not a split minded deity.

He wills what He wills and is able to see the entirety of salvation history. Man may choose good or evil but God’s will is done regardless. God is outside of time. He does not force anyone to choose which path to take. They are free to choose.

I think this is hard for us to understand because we are not God.

 

[earl40]

In regards to #14…

No. God is not a split minded deity.

He wills what He wills and is able to see the entirety of salvation history. Man may choose good or evil but God’s will is done regardless. God is outside of time. He does not force anyone to choose which path to take. They are free to choose.

I think this is hard for us to understand because we are not God.

You suppose I think is God “split minded” because you choose to not wrestle with the doctrine of His decretive will and His prescriptive will. This I wish you would do. Try to at least UNDERSTAND what I am saying, You may not agree after you understand, but at least try to comprehend what I am saying.

Aso men are totally free to choose. The point I think you may disagree with is that unless a man is born from above he will only choose evil. I suspect we disagree on how far man fell with Adam and how effective the life and death of Jesus is.

 

[MichaelHowling]

No, I’m sorry… I don’t understand what you are talking about with this two wills deal… I’ve never heard of such a teaching.

I do know that you can only have one will … to have two wills does not make sense. God is not split minded.

He is all knowing, is outside of time, has one will , and we as humans have a free will where God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.

I hope you understand. I really suspect you are missing some fundemental steps in your logic.

God Bless,

Michael

 

[earl40]

No, I’m sorry… I don’t understand what you are talking about with this two wills deal… I’ve never heard of such a teaching.

I do know that you can only have one will … to have two wills does not make sense. God is not split minded.

He is all knowing, is outside of time, has one will , and we as humans have a free will where God already knows what we are going to do before we do it.

I hope you understand. I really suspect you are missing some fundemental steps in your logic.

God Bless,

Michael

Google is your friend. Look up the diference sometime on His prescriptive will and decretive will. Your God will grow larger than any god you can imagine. this is coming from a former RC turned “rabid” reformed protestant that has had his eyes opened by The Holy Spirit.