Hell

[FireFromHeaven]

I have three questions. Each of these is an example of a person and I am wondering if such a person is damned.

First, a devout Muslim. This Muslim truly believes that his religion holds the truth. He knows of other religions and in fact he is a good apologist, defending his faith well. He strives to live morally and rightly. He is seen as a good man by all his friends, Muslim or not.

Second, a militant atheist. The atheist searched for truth in religion for most of his life. He finally came to believe that their is none and that religion should be ended. He lives according to the ethics of atheist pretty much not hurting others and helping anyone regardless of beliefs. He regularly argues with religous people in an attempt to show them their “errors” and dislikes their “ignorance”.

Finally, Gollum, from the Lord of the Rings. I don’t need to explain him.

I do not believe as these examples do but am wondering if they are damned. Please remain civil.

 

[DexUK]

I have three questions. Each of these is an example of a person and I am wondering if such a person is damned.

First, a devout Muslim. This Muslim truly believes that his religion holds the truth. He knows of other religions and in fact he is a good apologist, defending his faith well. He strives to live morally and rightly. He is seen as a good man by all his friends, Muslim or not.

Second, a militant atheist. The atheist searched for truth in religion for most of his life. He finally came to believe that their is none and that religion should be ended. He lives according to the ethics of atheist pretty much not hurting others and helping anyone regardless of beliefs. He regularly argues with religous people in an attempt to show them their “errors” and dislikes their “ignorance”.

Finally, Gollum, from the Lord of the Rings. I don’t need to explain him.

I do not believe as these examples do but am wondering if they are damned. Please remain civil.

Depends on how you apply the principle of Invincible Ignorance really.

The Muslim may know of other religions, but he may not know the enough about Catholicism to have been able to absorb its beliefs. Certainly I don’t know much about Islam. He would therefore not be likely to be guilty of mortal sin in the same way that we are, and we would therefore rely on the mercy of God at the time of this Muslim man’s death. We can’t say for certain whether this Muslim man is damned. For the sake of his soul, we hope that he isn’t.

As for the militant atheist… again, it depends on how much he knew and how much he wilfully rejected and whether he did so deliberately to spite God or because he simply couldn’t understand what he was taught. He would appear to be on shakier ground though, if he was actively trying to dissuade other people from holding their beliefs. If his name is Richard Dawkins (the rabid atheist responsible for the book ‘The God Delusion’) then I’d say he isn’t living his life in a way that doesn’t hurt others and is, in fact, responsible for a vast amount of hurt and deserves that biblical millstone around his neck… That doesn’t mean we should’t pray for his soul though. It is a work of charity and mercy to do so, and even if there isn’t very much hope, we should always want a person to come into the beatific vision of God at the end of their lives, no matter how much we dislike them in this life.

Gollum… well, he was essentially possessed and not in full control of his will. Whatever he did, he could not be said to have done freely of his original will. He might well have gone to ‘Middle Earth Heaven’ if Middle Earth’s God was as merciful as ours.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thank you. What if, for example, both of the first two were ex Catholics who knew their faith very well but still left?

 

[onceablasphemer]

Thank you. What if, for example, both of the first two were ex Catholics who knew their faith very well but still left?

We cannot fully grasp another persons culpability. It sounds like you are looking for the answer that, yes, they are damned, but we cannot know that nor should we assume anything but the mercy of God.

 

[bzkoss236]

To put it bluntly and simply, it isn’t for us to decide or judge who is damned and who isn’t. That job rests solely with God. And in my opinion, making the assumption that you know who might be damned, you make it seem as though you know the will of God for that person.

It does us no good to ask whether people will be damned or not. We are to live out our faith, not to place judgement, but show love and compassion to all and to share our faith.

 

[Lisa1967]

I like the part of the Eucharistic Prayer where we pray for those whose faith is known to God alone. I believe that only God knows who is going to Heaven or Hell. Maybe even Gollum has a chance.

 

[Steveabrous]

All are in danger of being damned.

The muslim might have a chance.

The athiest probably not.

Gollum is not real

 

[George_Stegmeir]

We cannot fully grasp another persons culpability. It sounds like you are looking for the answer that, yes, they are damned, but we cannot know that nor should we assume anything but the mercy of God.

Boy, things have changed since Vatican II ! I remember being taught by Irish Nuns in Parochial School back in the 1940’s, that if a Catholic ever forsook his religion and died without repenting, he would roast for eternity in hell…and they were quite graphic in describing the torments of hell, so we would never forget it!

 

[1protestant]

Boy, things have changed since Vatican II ! I remember being taught by Irish Nuns in Parochial School back in the 1940’s, that if a Catholic ever forsook his religion and died without repenting, he would roast for eternity in hell…and they were quite graphic in describing the torments of hell, so we would never forget it!

in the catholic work of education-- nun were dogmanic

you -r-right- the counsel of Trent really set the stage for judgement of another person-

but the answer is really simple " if you are in covenant and have the Holy Spirit" you are on of the elect-- so don’t add to the “TORAH”

every thing else is added religious tradition – and Jesus talked about being against that-- he said don’t listen to the leaven of the pherises – unless they were sitting in the

“seat-of-moses” speaking only the torah truth–

every thing out side of that is Man-made-religious- tradition-- and every religious demonation says God sanctioned this _ALL–SO

 

[R_C]

I have three questions. Each of these is an example of a person and I am wondering if such a person is damned.

First, a devout Muslim. This Muslim truly believes that his religion holds the truth. He knows of other religions and in fact he is a good apologist, defending his faith well. He strives to live morally and rightly. He is seen as a good man by all his friends, Muslim or not. Can be saved.

Second, a militant atheist. The atheist searched for truth in religion for most of his life. He finally came to believe that their is none and that religion should be ended. He lives according to the ethics of atheist pretty much not hurting others and helping anyone regardless of beliefs. He regularly argues with religous people in an attempt to show them their “errors” and dislikes their “ignorance”. Can be saved.

I do not believe as these examples do but am wondering if they are damned. Please remain civil.

Nobody in this life can say: “I am damned” or “such person is damned”. That is an idea that hurts the Lord very much. We are called to seek the truth. If by invincible ignorance we don’t find Christ, we will at least be closer to God and He knows what we would have done, had we found Christ. A certain tax collector needed nothing but a look and a word to leave it all and follow Christ. God established His Church and gave authority to His apostles and the Sacraments as the ordinary means for salvation, but God is not tied to His Sacraments, nor is He an unfair God. No, He dwells in the hearts of the humble, and will never refuse a contrite heart. This is no excuse to reject Christ, if we know Him, or His Church. But Christ did say that those who love God with their whole heart and their neighbor like themselves would live.

Atheism is present for a myriad of reasons, often purely personal. But a virtuous atheist believes in love, in mercy, in charity. He says: “I don’t believe in God” (though this is an act of faith, for he cannot know that there is no God), yet he believes in God, that God who said: “If you don’t believe in me, believe in the works, for wisdom is justified by her works”, and this he will show in his life, for “from my works - says the apostle - I will show you my faith”, and “from their fruits you shall recognize them”.

The Good Message is good indeed, and salvation is truly universal. God’s hands are extended to all, His arms wide open, attracting all to Him who is the creator of us all, and that everyone’s soul knows very well. And blessed indeed are those who will not turn their back on Him, regardless of their knowledge or ignorance of God’s divine plan of salvation through Christ and His Church.

 

[Lisa1967]

I was kidding about Gollum. I have been a Lord of the Rings fan since I was 10 years old. I even had a cat named Frodo.

There are people like Gollum, though, who are enslaved. I believe that God can have mercy on them.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Thank you. What if, for example, both of the first two were ex Catholics who knew their faith very well but still left?

IMHO, any Catholic who leaves the faith does not know their faith very well. At least that was my case, when I left.

That said, no human person can say who is going to be “damned”, that judgement is left to God and God alone, no matter what any well-meaning person has said to the contrary, including the good sisters!

 

[thistle]

Thank you. What if, for example, both of the first two were ex Catholics who knew their faith very well but still left?

None of us knows the state of anyone’s soul at death. Only God knows that.

However, we can objectively state with certainty that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
We can also state that a Catholic who walks away from the Church has committed a mortal sin (assuming no coercion or diminished mental capacity which might reduce culpability).

 

[barrera101]

Jesus is the “Only” way to the father. Hope that answers your questions.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[thistle]

Jesus is the “Only” way to the father. Hope that answers your questions.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

Salvation is only through Jesus but you must be baptised and Catholic. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (the only Church established by Christ to which he entrusted the deposit of faith and gave authority in matters of faith and morals).
Even with invincible ignorance a person would implicitly be deemed to be Catholic.

 

[FireFromHeaven]

Thank you all. To the person above, no I was not looking for whether they would be damned. I was trying to see if there was a certain point where they cannot be saved. But other posters are right in that we cannot know. God bless.

 

[davidv]

Thank you all. To the person above, no I was not looking for whether they would be damned. I was trying to see if there was a certain point where they cannot be saved. But other posters are right in that we cannot know. God bless.

There is a certain point where one cannot be saved, and that is at death. Death seals one’s earthly choices, either to love, or not. If one has chosen to love, God’s mercy applies and heaven is the result. If, not love, hell is the result.

 

[Michael1966]

Hi FireFromHeaven

Like others I do not know, but I pray for God’s mercy on all of those. I do hope, though, that if Gollum is there and if I have to sit next to the dinner table with him, that he has learned that meat and fish is much better cooked than eaten raw.

I will confess that I have a certain sympathy with the Orthodox view on this - that we can’t be sure when the last chance for mercy is, and so we pray, in hope but not in certainty, for all - even those who have died away from Christ. I am aware that is not the formal Catholic view, but my view is that if there is even a small amount of hope, then I will pray in that hope. I suppose I am a hopeful, though far from certain, universalist - my hope and prayer is that the redeeming power of Christ, and his love for the world, will ultimately heal all creation, and I hold on to that hope in prayer.

I do take hope from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Colossians…

*For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
*
God bless +

 

[thistle]

Hi FireFromHeaven

Like others I do not know, but I pray for God’s mercy on all of those. I do hope, though, that if Gollum is there and if I have to sit next to the dinner table with him, that he has learned that meat and fish is much better cooked than eaten raw.

I will confess that I have a certain sympathy with the Orthodox view on this - that** we can’t be sure when the last chance for mercy is**, and so we pray, in hope but not in certainty, for all - even those who have died away from Christ. I am aware that is not the formal Catholic view, but my view is that if there is even a small amount of hope, then I will pray in that hope. I suppose I am a hopeful, though far from certain, universalist - my hope and prayer is that the redeeming power of Christ, and his love for the world, will ultimately heal all creation, and I hold on to that hope in prayer.

I do take hope from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Colossians…

*For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
*
God bless +

Yes we can be sure. It is an infallible Church teaching that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. Our chance for mercy is only up to our dying breath.

 

[fred_conty]

I have three questions. Each of these is an example of a person and I am wondering if such a person is damned.

First, a devout Muslim. This Muslim truly believes that his religion holds the truth. He knows of other religions and in fact he is a good apologist, defending his faith well. He strives to live morally and rightly. He is seen as a good man by all his friends, Muslim or not.

Second, a militant atheist. The atheist searched for truth in religion for most of his life. He finally came to believe that their is none and that religion should be ended. He lives according to the ethics of atheist pretty much not hurting others and helping anyone regardless of beliefs. He regularly argues with religous people in an attempt to show them their “errors” and dislikes their “ignorance”.

Finally, Gollum, from the Lord of the Rings. I don’t need to explain him.

I do not believe as these examples do but am wondering if they are damned. Please remain civil.

The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal, serious] sin. (De fide.)

The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide. )

The above quotes are from Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

Did these three persons have some form of baptism which justified them?

And if they did, did they ever commit a grievous sin?

And if they did, were they able to be forgiven for it in some way?

If they didn’t, then it seems they may be in very deep trouble. Only God can say for sure.

In my personal wish and prayer, I hope and pray everyday that all go to heaven.

But that dosen’t make it so. We must do what we must do.

Anyone who has committed any serious sin is placing themselves in grave jeopardy.

We know how Catholics relieve themselves of their serious sins thru sacraments.

But we really don’t know what means are necessary for removal of sin in others.

And here is one more additional statement from Ott.

In the condition of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without restoring grace (gratia sanans) to fulfil the entire moral law and to overcome all serious temptations for any considerable period of time. (Sent. certa.)