Hell

[Michael1966]

Yes we can be sure. It is an infallible Church teaching that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. Our chance for mercy is only up to our dying breath.

Thanks for your comments Thistle. I realise my view is at odds with the current view of the Catholic Church, but I’d rather be honest about the way I see things. It seems to me there has always been considerable uncertainty about eschatological questions as shown by the doctrinal development of limbo and purgatory (the latter away from the medieval view of a number of “days”, which there seems no doubt were considered literal days back then). I also consider it significant that the Catholic Doctrine developed, and developed away from the less structured and defined view held by the Orthodox Church showing, I believe, that the Catholic Doctrine on eschatological matters was not simply a passing down of the faith of the early Church. Where there is a significant difference between Orthodox and Catholic belief I’m inclined to believe we stand on less firm ground, as the differences probably reflect some degree of innovation which is likely, to some extent, to be somewhat speculative (perhaps that explains one attraction of Benedictine spirituality to me - it comes from a time before the schisms and the influence of scholasticism).

Anyway, appreciating that we’ll probably differ on this - but I will carry on praying for all, in hope

P.S. I like the reading in last night’s evening prayer from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Ephesians…

*With all wisdom and insight he [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. *

God bless +

 

[thistle]

Thanks for your comments Thistle. I realise my view is at odds with the current view of the Catholic Church, but I’d rather be honest about the way I see things. It seems to me there has always been considerable uncertainty about eschatological questions as shown by the doctrinal development of limbo and purgatory (the latter away from the medieval view of a number of “days”, which there seems no doubt were considered literal days back then). I also consider it significant that the Catholic Doctrine developed, and developed away from the less structured and defined view held by the Orthodox Church showing, I believe, that the Catholic Doctrine on eschatological matters was not simply a passing down of the faith of the early Church. Where there is a significant difference between Orthodox and Catholic belief I’m inclined to believe we stand on less firm ground, as the differences probably reflect some degree of innovation which is likely, to some extent, to be somewhat speculative (perhaps that explains one attraction of Benedictine spirituality to me - it comes from a time before the schisms and the influence of scholasticism).

Anyway, appreciating that we’ll probably differ on this - but I will carry on praying for all, in hope

P.S. I like the reading in last night’s evening prayer from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Ephesians…

*With all wisdom and insight he [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. *

God bless +

Sorry but the teaching on anyone dying in a state of mortal sin going immediately to Hell is an infallible teaching and MUST be believed. I’m not saying this is you but talking generally anyone who rejects this teaching commits heresy.

 

[Aussieman88]

Sorry but the teaching on anyone dying in a state of mortal sin going immediately to Hell is an infallible teaching and MUST be believed. I’m not saying this is you but talking generally anyone who rejects this teaching commits heresy.

Remember when David went to war and only lost 36 men that day? All 36 (I think is was 36 could be a different number) were wearing under their clothes the symbol of a false god. David ordered calves be offered for the dead soldiers in accordance with the law and those dead were saved.

Does this teaching say IMMEDIATELY? The bible says the damned will not go to hell untill they have been judged on the Day of Judgement.

There may be some information required here or some theology that i’m not aware of.

 

[Lisa1967]

Hi FireFromHeaven

Like others I do not know, but I pray for God’s mercy on all of those. I do hope, though, that if Gollum is there and if I have to sit next to the dinner table with him, that he has learned that meat and fish is much better cooked than eaten raw.

I will confess that I have a certain sympathy with the Orthodox view on this - that we can’t be sure when the last chance for mercy is, and so we pray, in hope but not in certainty, for all - even those who have died away from Christ. I am aware that is not the formal Catholic view, but my view is that if there is even a small amount of hope, then I will pray in that hope. I suppose I am a hopeful, though far from certain, universalist - my hope and prayer is that the redeeming power of Christ, and his love for the world, will ultimately heal all creation, and I hold on to that hope in prayer.

I do take hope from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Colossians…

*For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
*
God bless +

I agree with you and had to smile about Gollum. I saw all the Lord of the Rings movies and I wouldn’t want to see him eat raw fish for all eternity.

In the end it’s up to God to decide who will be saved.

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks for your comments Thistle. I realise my view is at odds with the current view of the Catholic Church, but I’d rather be honest about the way I see things. It seems to me there has always been considerable uncertainty about eschatological questions as shown by the doctrinal development of limbo and purgatory (the latter away from the medieval view of a number of “days”, which there seems no doubt were considered literal days back then). I also consider it significant that the Catholic Doctrine developed, and developed away from the less structured and defined view held by the Orthodox Church showing, I believe, that the Catholic Doctrine on eschatological matters was not simply a passing down of the faith of the early Church. Where there is a significant difference between Orthodox and Catholic belief I’m inclined to believe we stand on less firm ground, as the differences probably reflect some degree of innovation which is likely, to some extent, to be somewhat speculative (perhaps that explains one attraction of Benedictine spirituality to me - it comes from a time before the schisms and the influence of scholasticism).

Anyway, appreciating that we’ll probably differ on this - but I will carry on praying for all, in hope

P.S. I like the reading in last night’s evening prayer from Paul’s beautiful writing to the Ephesians…

*With all wisdom and insight he [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. *

God bless +

Michael,
here are some references from Ott’s Fundamental’s of Catholic Dogma that may help.

“Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided.” (Sent. fidei proxima.)

“The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.” (De fide. )

“Suffrages are of no profit to the damned in Hell as they do not belong to the Mystical Body of Christ.” (Sent. communis.)

The question of when death takes place is unsure because “apparent” death is not the same as “actual” death. The soul may still be present in the body sometime after “apparent” death.
And if there is a priest present before actual death, then he may administer the sacraments.

Maria Simma, a mystic on purgatory, whose book is “Get us out of here”, mentions that everyone has a final chance to to yes or not to God in their last moments. Here is what she says,
“The souls have told me that every person has the same opportunity at death to say yes at the last moment. Whether it is a long slow illness that takes them or a bullet throught the brain, they still all get the same two to three minutes to say “yes” to God. And ONLY if they hold on to their “no” all the way through(the two or three minutes) are they then lost and must suffer Hell eternally.” Page 122.

This isn’t church teaching but I do not see anything contrary to it either.
The words in parenthesis are mine.

Just some thoughts.

 

[thistle]

Remember when David went to war and only lost 36 men that day? All 36 (I think is was 36 could be a different number) were wearing under their clothes the symbol of a false god. David ordered calves be offered for the dead soldiers in accordance with the law and those dead were saved.

Does this teaching say IMMEDIATELY? The bible says the damned will not go to hell untill they have been judged on the Day of Judgement.

There may be some information required here or some theology that i’m not aware of.

The infallible Church teaching:

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into Hell, where they suffer the punishments of Hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[Doxiemom]

Scripture says that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

This is truely THE mortal sin, a sin so deeply black that you are no longer capable of repenting . You have known God, heard the Holy Spirit speak to you and yet you turned away so firmly and completley ,but, not before you spit in His Eye. You will die ans you will go to hell. you belong there.

Short of this , there is always the possibility for Jesus to reach into the heart and pull a person’s spirit into His ever loving Arms. Since not one of us has died, we just cannot understand what goes on during death, how and what is accomplished.

And yet, there will always be those who will still reject Jesus. Even at that point. Who we are as a living person, so are we the same on the borders of death. These people WILL go to hell.

 

[steve_b]

Thank you. What if, for example, both of the first two were ex Catholics who knew their faith very well but still left?

In the following, Paul gives a stern warning about those who leave the Church and don’t return. The consequences are hell if they *die *in this sin. (which btw, that consequence defines a mortal sin) Paul is warning, he is not judging them. As others have said, God will judge. Paul is just saying (being inspired by the HS to say this) what the consequences are if one doesn’t repent of this sin before they die.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states (CCC) CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1035

 

[steve_b]

Scripture says that there is only one unforgivable sin and that is the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

iow, refusing to be contrite for one’s sins, particularly mortal sins, at death.

 

[Dtowne]

We all know the story. Smeagal gave into temptation, much like we do with sins. And he wanted the ring so bad, he murdered for it. As time continued, he kept using the ring and eventually became Gollum. I believe if one decided to never go to confession and turn away from the Lord completely- that ones soul might look like Gollum.

 

[BA11]

First, a devout Muslim. This Muslim truly believes that his religion holds the truth. He knows of other religions and in fact he is a good apologist, defending his faith well. He strives to live morally and rightly. He is seen as a good man by all his friends, Muslim or not.

If he was presented with the truth and freely rejected it, the bible says he won’t be saved. If not then I don’t know.

Second, a militant atheist. The atheist searched for truth in religion for most of his life. He finally came to believe that their is none and that religion should be ended. He lives according to the ethics of atheist pretty much not hurting others and helping anyone regardless of beliefs. He regularly argues with religous people in an attempt to show them their “errors” and dislikes their “ignorance”.

See above, though I assume by him arguing he has clearly been shown the gospel and rejected it. Again, the bible is very clear on how one is saved. Rejecting Jesus in light of the truth is bad juju.

Finally, Gollum, from the Lord of the Rings. I don’t need to explain him.

He’s already been tossed into a lake of fire of sorts, perhaps a merciful God will save him from that fate wice.

Now I’m not entirely sure what I believe about hell as I’ve seen some pretty compelling evidence for annilationism recently using original wording and context, but the bible does say how to get to heaven.

 

[Kush]

I personally don’t believe in hell (it is as real as Gollum and middle earth in my books).

However, I am sure most of of have met Athiests that are a lot more spiritual, and thus in enssence, closer to god than many practicing christians.

All are in danger of being damned.

The muslim might have a chance.

The athiest probably not.

Gollum is not real