hell

[browser1]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

 

[Atreyu]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

It’s a place of torment simply because we will be deprived of the beatific vision. I guess we don’t really know that much what it will be like (at least, I have no idea), but I assume that we’ll know what we’re missing out on, or something like that.

 

[Pryority7]

Hell is torment to the human soul because the human soul was not made for Hell, but for Heaven. When we refuse God, we refuse Heaven…when we refuse Heaven, we refuse the true life our souls were made to have and be fullfilled in. Hell is the eternal self-consumation of My Will be done as opposed to His
Will be done…the torment is a simple natural consequence of our own refusal of the divine life that is offered to us. God doesn’t WANT us to go to Hell, but we choose to go there on our one choice.

P7

 

[trogiah]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell.

I used to “know” that but the more I read the gospels the more I feel certain that statement is not the best way to say how one gets to hell.

Condemnation results from condemning others and doing that which you condemn others for doing. The failure to obtain forgiveness results from the failure to forgive. Jesus spells this out in plain simple terms - and in parables as well.

“Rejecting God” by the failure to keep some particular commandment (even the big ones) on some particular occasion is never an automatic ticket to hell. Such failures can keep us from living a full life but a single failure does not necessarily mean a lifetime of rejecting God.

A lifelong habit of pursuing some idol, (money, power, etc.) can result in condemnation because such pursuits invariably involve the practice of condemning and/or dismissing with contempt those who don’t have money, power, or whatever.

Really, we only get to hell if we send other people there. It is much harder to avoid doing that than some might think.

peace

Jim

 

[thistle]

I used to “know” that but the more I read the gospels the more I feel certain that statement is not the best way to say how one gets to hell.

Condemnation results from condemning others and doing that which you condemn others for doing. The failure to obtain forgiveness results from the failure to forgive. Jesus spells this out in plain simple terms - and in parables as well.
**
“Rejecting God” by the failure to keep some particular commandment (even the big ones) on some particular occasion is never an automatic ticket to hell. Such failures can keep us from living a full life but a single failure does not necessarily mean a lifetime of rejecting God.**
A lifelong habit of pursuing some idol, (money, power, etc.) can result in condemnation because such pursuits invariably involve the practice of condemning and/or dismissing with contempt those who don’t have money, power, or whatever.

Really, we only get to hell if we send other people there. It is much harder to avoid doing that than some might think.

peace

Jim

That’s not correct. Rejection of God’s love by committing a mortal sin which remains unrepented does indeed mean condemnation to Hell.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Although it is often truly pointed out that those in Hell have chosen their destiny, we must also safeguard the principle that Hell is not just “not making it into Heaven” but also actual punishment imposed by God due to our personal sins.

I think the Church safeguards both truths in the Catechism:

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves. . .To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

but also

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

I wonder, in fact, if the punishments of hell are not LESS then we would deserve, since sin is an offense of near-infinite magnitude because the one offended is Infinite.

I think that what we have to do is attempt to keep both realities before us: 1) that it is ultimately WE who choose our final destination, because God gives us all sufficient grace to be saved, but we have the freedom to reject and not cooperate with this grace and 2) God is just.

The classic division of the pains of Hell into the “pain of loss” and the “pain of sense” seem to me to illustrate this reality. Were Hell only about us not wanting to be with God then the “pain of loss” (not being with God) would be the only pain appropriate when we find out what we have chosen.

But, the “pain of sense” is also a punishment of Hell, and it seems appropriate because we are due punishiment for our sin as retribution.

As for whether or not these punishments are self-inflicted, yes you could say that, just as all punishments due to violations of the law or offenses against justice are in one sense “self-inflicted”. But in another sense, I think it would be better not to focus on this, because in a certain way punishment is only punishment when it is involuntary, and inflicted by another.

Of course, any discussion of God’s perfect Justice would be imbalanced if we fail to mention that perfect justice includes God’s mercy. He offers all the grace that is needed for us to enter into and remain in His friendship, and His forgiveness is inexhaustible. Thanks be to God!

I highly recommend this excellent article from the Rosary Confraternity on Eternal Punishment.

VC

 

[IHS]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

I believe the lost have no idea of what hell is really like and because of this they have no fear of going there.Once they are in hell its to late ,there is no coming out. God doesnt send us to hell.Its our sins that condemm us.Gods love never changes. He created us and He loves us even when we are in hell. And yes God is a forgiving God,however without repentence there is no forgiveness.We make choices and we are responsable for our decisions. God says chose life or choose death.It,s up to us.

 

[trogiah]

That’s not correct. Rejection of God’s love by committing a mortal sin which remains unrepented does indeed mean condemnation to Hell.

That does not seem to be what quite what Jesus says. The gospels indicate that it is the failure to forgive others that will warrant condemnation from God. Though I do believe that anyone disposed to be forgiving would also have to admit to their own failures and would invariably experience a measure of regret (repentance?) for having sinned against God.

 

[Vigis]

God does this because we are supposed to be our servants, yet he gave us a free will to do so. If we reject him that means we do not love him. Besides that God can not tolerate sin in his presence. So he sends those who do not love him (who have sinned) to Hell. Why is Hell, so…well a living Hell? That is because they do not serve the purpose to which God created them for. So the deserve it. God speed.

 

[stillwater]

did early christians believe in hell?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

did early christians believe in hell?

Stillwater, the answer to the question asked by the title of your link would be “Yes, early Christian did believe in hell”.

The article in the link, of course, goes on to discuss those early christains who (at some point in their life) may not have believed in hell. This doctrine of a “universal salvation”, like all heresies, comes around every century or so. . . .

For a more balanced discussion of the heresy see: Apocatastasis.

The point is that, although some individuals may have erroneously believed in a “temporary” hell, the Church teaches otherwise. The Tentmaker webpage you linked to unfortunately is only concerned with what certain indiviudals of antiquity may or may not have believed, and not with what those same individuals, who have now since passed away, know now. Their prior confusion has been cleared up.

VC

 

[kissozzydio]

May friend gave me a book to read by Augustine “On free choice of the will” (Thomas Williams). It is 129 pages and will take quite some time to read as you have to reread and meditate on what he is saying. I can not do this justice to explain it. I have to read it again this time taking notes. But it will explain how everything from God is good and just, and that hell is just. Example 3+7 =10 you have a free will to say No 3+7= frogs, 11, homosexuality, there is no God, or any other answer. Would you say from the point of justice these alternate answers are correct? This is the best answer I can give at this time. Thank you K.O.D.

 

[jophy]

in this life there are two things to consider,first hill is a place made by our almighty God not for us but for satan and his demons,and second heaven is God’s place where is throne is. Now because you don’t want to be with God it automatically understood that you want to be with satan so satans place is hill then it means that you agree to be with him then

 

[mchale]

I would say this, hell is hell, not because of direct suffering that God imposes. I agree with many that the absence of God is a big part of the suffering of Hell, but I think the other aspect of it is the complete lack of love. Those in Hell, I believe, by rejecting God, reject love, they hate others and ultimately themselves. Try living in a world where love is totally absent, I think none of us would want to live in that world.

–
Bill

 

[JMBNH]

Stillwater, the answer to the question asked by the title of your link would be “Yes, early Christian did believe in hell”.

The article in the link, of course, goes on to discuss those early christains who (at some point in their life) may not have believed in hell. This doctrine of a “universal salvation”, like all heresies, comes around every century or so. . . .

For a more balanced discussion of the heresy see: Apocatastasis.

The point is that, although some individuals may have erroneously believed in a “temporary” hell, the Church teaches otherwise. The Tentmaker webpage you linked to unfortunately is only concerned with what certain indiviudals of antiquity may or may not have believed, and not with what those same individuals, who have now since passed away, know now. Their prior confusion has been cleared up.

VC

I don’t think universalism has been officially condemned as heresy. Origen had many charges of heresy made against him, but despite him believing universalism that belief was not condemned. Likewise Justin Martyr said it was the more popular view at his time, though he rejected it. Also the Apocalypse of Peter (at one stage very popular) teaches universalism.

For the record I don’t believe in universalism, and it’s clear that some people go to Hell, and I think believing universalism is a very dangerous route to go down, as the only way we can know we’re saved is through the Catholic Church, it does go to show that we really don’t know exactly who is going to Hell

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I don’t think universalism has been officially condemned as heresy.

Thanks JMBNH,

My previous post should have been more tempered. I’m not aware it has been formally declared a heresy, and certainly the varied forms of Universalism might need to be addressed individually. I should have stated that it was, in my view, and erroneous theological doctrine. The complexity of the topic warrants a closer study and my response was probably a bit too simplistic.

VC

 

[jophy]

if you don’t know who will go in this tormenting place called hill then study your bible and you will know if you want me help then i will

 

[BlaineTog]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

All pleasure comes from God; even sinful pleasure, though it takes something heavenly and twists it. Hell is the absolute absence of God. Therefore, hell is utterly without pleasure.

That does not seem to be what quite what Jesus says. The gospels indicate that it is the failure to forgive others that will warrant condemnation from God. Though I do believe that anyone disposed to be forgiving would also have to admit to their own failures and would invariably experience a measure of regret (repentance?) for having sinned against God.

IIRC, your own forgiveness is contingent on your forgiving others, but not caused by your forgiveness of others, nor is it enough in itself to avoid hell; it is necessary, but not sufficient. After all, you could forgive everyone in the world of their sins and yet still hate God and spurn him. Yet, if you hold even one sin against one person, you are rejecting God’s desire for them to be forgiven, and are de facto choosing hell.

 

[Steve40]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

In addition to the torment God sustains those in Hell, in Hell. If He willed it He could just eliminate their existence all together.

It’s a very good question and I have thought about it myself.

The answer that satisfies me is that we are not as good as we think we are. Granted, God does not make junk but Original sin is real and could land someone in Hell without any action or decission on their part.

By definition God is Just and God is the Judge. If He decides we deserve Hell for eternity, then by definition we deserve Hell for whatever reason, rejection or Original Sin.

The good news is that He decided to save us and He did.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As I know it, if you reject God you make a conscious decision to go to hell. What I dont understand is, if you go to hell because you dont want to be with God, why would hell be a place of torment. You knew that God existed and you chose to turn from Him because that is what made you happy. Eternal suffering? It causes me to question Gods character. Can we make him that angry that he wants to punish us forever. How can a forgiving, loving God do that? Your views? Thanks guys

God is Love - & that is the trouble. If we refuse His Love, only His Anger is left. If we reject His Mercy, we choose the “consuming fire” of His Righteous Judgement. God has freely, from sheer Divine Goodness, made us for Himself - we are not created to be happy in any mere creation whatever, but in Him only. This is infinite Love, infinite Mercy, infinite Compassion - so the NT speaks of “the fury of the Wrath of God”; for that too is infinite. His attitude to sin is called “hate” in the OT - if we make our peace with sin, ally ourselves with sin, we are uniting ourselves to it, & must expect to be caught up in the hatred for it that He pours out upon it.​

I definitely believe in God’s Love - which is why I believe there is a Hell for the impenitent. No one is damned by mistake, or unjustly - we would be getting what we wanted most of all: ourselves & our sins, without God, eternally. It is no fault of God’s that sin is hideous; He nowhere commands us to sin, but most urgently & vehemently & very frequently commands us not to. If the consideration of the punishments of Hell is no deterrent, & if the consideration of the vastness of the Love of God, & the sufferings of Christ, are no deterrent, what* is* going to deter us from rushing headlong to destruction ?

It may very well be that His Hatred of sin is simply a form of His Love: or, that they are one & same thing, from different angles, as it were. As He is Himself altogether Holy & Righteous, how can He love what is unrighteous, unholy, sinful ? Somehow, He did - on the Cross most of all, when He loved us sinners, & gave Himself for us. If people do not respond to that, in which God humbles Himself to die for sinners, to love those who are hateful, to be “made sin” (as St. Paul says) for them, to be deprived of the Father’s Presence - what are we going to respond to ?

What is God supposed to do, & what can He do, that He has not done ? Die for us ? He has. Be our Food ? He is. Promise us Heaven ? He has. Give us His own family ? He has. Be our example ? Same answer. How do we know sin is hateful to Him ? The Bible shows us dozens of examples of His threatenings, rebukes, judgments, displeasure, warnings against & upon sin. He Himself - not His disciples only - warns of Hell. This is not a god who used to act; this is the God Who still & always acts, still has mercy, still saves,still gives grace, still seeks the salvation of sinners.

God has done everything imaginable & unimaginable for us - the one thing He cannot do is repent of sin. Only we can. This is impossible in itself, but with His help it is not impossible. No one has to be damned.

IMHO, there’s far too much concentration on how horrid Hell is for us (which indeed it is), & far too little on what God endures from us. He endures not one sin, from one person, once only - but repeated sins, constantly, from the entire human race, generation after generation; most definitely including ours, who claim to be His. The patience of God is a miracle in itself. So how can it be unfair that we should be eternally damned, if we refuse to receive mercy ? There is cruelty here - but from us: not from God.