Hellbound Catholics---An Experiment

[Teflon93]

One of the underlying assumptions of some Protestants (esp. Fundamentalists and evangelicals) in soteriology threads is that FAITHFUL Catholics (i.e. those who follow the teachings of the Church within their daily lives) are going to Hell.

And yet, I rarely see an argument formulated with supporting evidence that this will be the case.

Let’s put this notion of devout Catholic = Hellbound Catholic to the test.

Here are the ground rules:

1. Any practice of devout Catholics or teaching of the Church MUST be justified by reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the authoritative compendium of Tradition.

Here’s a link to a searchable, online Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

1. Any proof that engaging in such practices or faithfully following such teachings result in damnation MUST be supported by Scripture.

A searchable, online KJV is here:

etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

Since Catholics recognize the Catechism as our authoritative guide to the teachings of the Church and Protestants often insist on Scripture Alone to justify doctrine and dogma, there should be no objection to using these sources to make the case.

Therefore:

Proposition**—“Those Catholics who faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church and engage in the practices required of those teachings will be damned.” **

Let’s see the arguments!

 

[GailMac]

Hmmmmm…interesting idea but I sincerely don’t think you’ll get many nibbles.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. Off to do one of those mindlessly Catholic devotions…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

One of the underlying assumptions of some Protestants (esp. Fundamentalists and evangelicals) in soteriology threads is that FAITHFUL Catholics (i.e. those who follow the teachings of the Church within their daily lives) are going to Hell.

And yet, I rarely see an argument formulated with supporting evidence that this will be the case.

Let’s put this notion of devout Catholic = Hellbound Catholic to the test.

Here are the ground rules:

1. Any practice of devout Catholics or teaching of the Church MUST be justified by reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the authoritative compendium of Tradition.

Here’s a link to a searchable, online Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

1. Any proof that engaging in such practices or faithfully following such teachings result in damnation MUST be supported by Scripture.

A searchable, online KJV is here:

etext.lib.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html

Since Catholics recognize the Catechism as our authoritative guide to the teachings of the Church and Protestants often insist on Scripture Alone to justify doctrine and dogma, there should be no objection to using these sources to make the case.

Therefore:

Proposition**—“Those Catholics who faithfully follow the teachings of the Catholic Church and engage in the practices required of those teachings will be damned.” **

Let’s see the arguments!

Try 2 Thessalonians 2 specifically this:​

**
**

• [2Th 2:1 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Th&chapter=2&verse=1&version=kjv/l1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
• 2Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
• 2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
• 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
• 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
• 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
• 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
• 2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
  It is not difficult to see in this passage:
• the Pope (aka “the man of sin”);
• Catholicism (the “strong delusion”)
• the progress of corruption in the young Church (“the mystery of corruption doth already work”)
• miracles (“signs…wonders”)

• “devout Catholics”, on this interpretation, show, by the very fact of their devotion, that they are (so to say) “heading south”. Their devotion is what condemns them; it shows, by this way of looking at things, not that they are fruitful Christians, but that their devotion is not different from that of the Athenians of Acts 17 to whom St Paul said: “I perceive that you are very religious (or: superstitious)”. That Catholicism contains some Christian things only shows how dangerous it is - just as water is healthy, but the cyanide in it is not.

The thinking behind that use of 2 Thessalonians 2 seems to be or include, in no particular order:

• “God says” what that passage says
• It is applicable to the “Romish Church”
• No other rivals for that ID seem to be around
• There is no shortage of stuff in the past & present of the “RC” that lends itself to this interpretation
• there is no lack of Biblical passages that show God doing what this passages says He does
• &, an argument of a different kind: Rome Papal is the Babylon of the NT; it is prefigured by the Babylon of the OT; the Babylon of the OT was cast down by the judgement of God; soooo: the NT Babylon will be cast down even more completely - the principle being, that of Hebrews 1: the fulfilment is “fuller” (as it were) than the type.
• Therefore: God hates the “apostate church” of Rome: so if we want to be saved we must “come out of her” (Rev. 18.4: which echoes a place in the OT)
• And: those who are Christ’s, would be committing a sin if they recognised as Christians those whom God in His Word does not; so no obedient Christian is at liberty to “extend the hand of fellowship” to Catholics
  Religious people can be dazzled by their own goodness, so their very virtues can become an obstacle to their being completely converted to Christ. When people use this insight in a partisan way to condemn (in this case) Catholics, while “insulating” their own faith & their own relation to God from being judged by it, it has stopped working as the insight into His grace that it should be, & has been degraded into a means of sinful self-assertion.

Not all arguments are this unfavourable to Catholic things, but there it is

 

[Teflon93]

And where are the Catechism passages which establish the Catholic Church believes that which that Thessalonians passage references?

 

[RobHom]

As I see it, there is no argument to support the Protestant/Fundamentalist viewpoint…other than “their opinions”.

People who practice “selective religion”, otherwise known as “BK theology”…as in Burger King, have it your way… have a tendency to espouse to various “opinions” based on “snippets of out of context scriptures to justify themselves”…which fails always.

Its all or none, and the Catholic Church is the only one that embraces “all”…

 

[Cattitude]

Ok, I’ll take a stab. This is from jesus-is-lord.com, which is a horrible anti-Catholic site. There is a whole section dedicated to the CCC vs Scripture - the KJV, of course. The first section is the quote from the CCC, the second section is the website author’s (Tracy) scriptural claim of the CCC being false. Here we cover idolatry - 1st class ticket straight to hell!

** Keep images in your home & church**
“Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.” (Pg. 328, #1161)

---

Do not make images
(a) A Catholic will quickly respond, “We don’t worship statues!” Please note carefully that it has nothing to do with worshipping statutes [Tracy thinks it does], but MAKING AND HAVING GRAVEN IMAGES. The Catholic church contends that these graven images are “intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ” which is a transgression against the second commandment:

The Catholic church contends that these graven images are “intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ” which is a transgression against the second commandment:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY GRAVEN IMAGE, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" -Ex. 20:4

God hates it and continues to command:

"Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD God hath forbidden thee." -Deut. 4:23

God still hates it:

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; WHICH THE LORD THY GOD HATETH." -Deut. 16:22

(b) The Bible tells us you have been “corrupted” and therefore are given to graven images:

"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female." -Deut. 4:15-16

(c) God forbids the bowing down to statues, which is a common practice in the Catholic church. In the convent I spent many days saying novenas (which is a recitation of prayers and devotion for a special purpose during nine consecutive days), bowing down before a certain statue saying my rosary. The next time you bow down before a statue, remember the following:

"Thou shalt NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy am a jealous God..." -Ex. 20:5

(d) Bowing down before statues will not awaken and nourish your faith in the mystery of Christ. Rather, behind every graven image is a devil:

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?...the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice TO DEVILS, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." -1 Cor. 10:19-20

(e) God says to stay away from idols for your own good. Everytime you bow down to one, you bow to the kingdom of Satan. This is not a command which the Lord hath given and He despises the practice. He will not share His glory with graven images, Mary worship or “saint” worship.

"TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." -Lev. 19:4

Yup, according to her website, hell has a lot of Catholics in it.

 

[GailMac]

Ya know, sometimes I hear what they offer at various Protestant denominations and I think to myself their offerings are more like “pick your heresy, any heresy, and we’ll preach it to the rafters for you!” So much of their stuff is plainly spelled out in books defining historical heresies. I wish more Catholics would learn what the different heresies were so they wouldn’t be so vulnerable when others are explaining what it is they beleive. If they knew the basics about the different heresies, they could listen politely and know within themselves, “hey, that’s iconoclasm…etc.” and respond appropriately, not with coldness, or disdain, but with prayers, etc. on behalf of our separated brethren who are drowning in errors. It is easier, I think to explain the Truth if you know beforehand what the basic error is and study of the heresies provides just that - an understanding of the particular error and how to refute it according to what the Church has siad through the ages regarding the various errors that have left their wake on our common Christian history.

Oh well, I talk too much. And it is time to leave for Church.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Teflon93]

Yup, according to her website, hell has a lot of Catholics in it.

Maybe so, but where is the Catechism reference compelling Catholics to practice idolatry?

 

[sandusky]

Ya know, sometimes I hear what they offer at various Protestant denominations and I think to myself their offerings are more like “pick your heresy, any heresy, and we’ll preach it to the rafters for you!” So much of their stuff is plainly spelled out in books defining historical heresies. I wish more Catholics would learn what the different heresies were so they wouldn’t be so vulnerable when others are explaining what it is they beleive. If they knew the basics about the different heresies, they could listen politely and know within themselves, “hey, that’s iconoclasm…etc.” and respond appropriately, not with coldness, or disdain, but with prayers, etc. on behalf of our separated brethren who are drowning in errors. It is easier, I think to explain the Truth if you know beforehand what the basic error is and study of the heresies provides just that - an understanding of the particular error and how to refute it according to what the Church has siad through the ages regarding the various errors that have left their wake on our common Christian history.

Oh well, I talk too much. And it is time to leave for Church.

Peace,

Gail

Here’s a very good resource on heresies for anyone interested: by Harold O.J. Brown.Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of The Church

 

[Cattitude]

Maybe so, but where is the Catechism reference compelling Catholics to practice idolatry?

Well, according the website in question, the following reference, in addition to the one mentioned above, from the Catechism compel us to just that:

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented.

That would be her definition of idolatry, of course. And she conveniently ignores this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

And this:

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

And the scripture references given in the footnotes of the CCC:

Numbers 21
8: And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9: And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Wisdom - oops! They got rid of that one…
But here’s one:

John 3
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So, by looking a little deeper, it’s easily dismantled. But you already knew that, right?

 

[Teflon93]

So, by looking a little deeper, it’s easily dismantled. But you already knew that, right?

That is indeed the point of the experiment.

By requiring reference to the Catechism, we avoid the tendency of anti-Catholics to mythologize.

Moreover, though, I am genuinely interested in how one squares the circle that the very beliefs and practices of devout Catholics—represented most perfectly in the Mass, which all Christians mimic to some degree or other—are damning rather than salvific.

Past threads haven’t cleared this up.

The challenge is thus clear—can any non-Catholic demonstrate from the Catechism a practice or belief which is a) contrary to Scripture and b) will result in damnation?

These conditions are necessary if one believes devout Catholics are hellbound, which is a common belief among Fundamentalists and evangelicals.