HellFire, Judaism, and the Old Testament Scriptures

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Hi.
In talking with a conservative Jewish dear friend of mine, I was surprised to learn
that Jewish people categorically reject belief in Original Sin (believing that all babies are
born innocent with a CLEAN slate) and also reject and have never, ever believed
in, eternal conscious punishment in a fiery hell, not even for the worst offenders.

This reminded me of something that has bothered me all my life.
There is no theology of hellfire in biblical ancient Judaism, anywhere, ever,
not at all. Adam and Eve weren’t threatened with Hellfire in addition to physical death.
Nor was Cain, nor was Saul, nor was David. Moses never taught the Israelites any doctrine of an eternal conscious punishment of sinners in Hellfire.
This bothers me.
If this is God’s Truth, Hellfire I mean, is it fair to say that
morally speaking, God SHOULD HAVE warned all sinners, from the very beginning
of humanity, that if they sin unrepentantly, they will be eternally and consciously punished in a fiery Hell? Yet there is no such belief in ancient Israel, anywhere.
The first time “helllfire” appears, is in some of the sayings of Jesus.
Hellfire is translated from the word Gehenna or GeHennom, which, according to Jewish rabbis, refers to something like what we Catholics call Purgatory, only in Judaism, this GeHennom only lasts for a maximum of 12 months, which is why Jews pray for the souls of the dead for 11 months after they die (hoping that no one is so bad as to deserve the full 12 months).
Why did God never reveal this doctrine of eternal conscious punishment in Hellfire, ever,
to the ancient Israelites? I don’t understand this. They were the Chosen People. Yet they had never even heard of such a thing (except perhaps a brief possible allusion to something like it, in Daniel ??)
It’s one thing for the doctrine of the Trinity to be only gradually revealed,
but Hellfire is something really really horrific, it is information that people cannot AFFORD to have withheld from them, NOT EVER, because their eternity depends on knowing about it.
So WHY would God withhold this VITAL information from the Jewish people, right up until the time of Jesus??
One last thing:
JESUS spoke of the “eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.”
But WAIT A MINUTE. How in God’s name can the Devil and his angels
be hurt by literal fire, when they are spirits who do not have physical bodies??
Fire would not have any effect whatsoever on Satan and his demons.
Yet the wicked, in resurrected bodies, are going to be thrown into this “fire”???
Why should wicked HUMANS receive a more severe punishment -
horrendous physical burning torture - than even the foulest pure-spirit demons??
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
…JESUS spoke of the “eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.”…
Click to expand...
You make a good point, there is no hell in the old testament. Hades is a concept borrowed by greek christians from greek mythology.

The authors of Matthew wrote 35-40 years after Jesus lived, and contradicts the other gospels, so what Jesus is alledged to have spoken here is itself very unreliable.
 
Somewhere in the book of Daniel is a prediction of resurrection,
and that some who are resurrected will be objects of horror and loathing.
This could be an allusion to hell, I think.
But that is but one brief reference in the entire old testament.

I am hoping for some orthodox Catholic replies on the matter,
as I am sure this question(s) has come up before.
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
Hi.
One last thing:
JESUS spoke of the “eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.”
But WAIT A MINUTE. How in God’s name can the Devil and his angels
be hurt by literal fire, when they are spirits who do not have physical bodies??
Fire would not have any effect whatsoever on Satan and his demons.
Yet the wicked, in resurrected bodies, are going to be thrown into this “fire”???
Why should wicked HUMANS receive a more severe punishment -
horrendous physical burning torture - than even the foulest pure-spirit demons??
Click to expand...
Hell-fire (the Lake of Fire) spoken of is not (I believe)
physical combustion of carbon and oxygen etc. For example,
“God is a consuming fire.” Heb 12:29 but not like the sun’s nuclear fusion fire for…
“God is a spirit.” John 4:24 He is a spirit but also a fire yet that fire is spiritual
not a plasma or carbon combustion or any other type of physical process.
So fires spoken of in Bible are not always physical fires.
CCC 1034
Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”

CCC 1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. see ‘immediately’ above, yet these persons don’t descend immediately with their
physical bodies. For the most part we physically bury our dead. Its the spiritual soul
that descends at that time into hell and experiences burning…for eternity.
At the resurrection of the dead their bodies reattach to their spiritual souls
and accompany them in suffering eternally.

remember too that
God can make fires that don’t consume physical objects…but yet are fires.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him
in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold,
the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Gehenna was the fire continually burning in the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem
which was a TYPE of the fire that unsaved souls and the devil and his angels
enter into…its not the reality. Souls and demons aren’t going to go into a garbage dump
in an old valley outside of old Jerusalem and there be burnt physically. :eek:

let me know if this doesn’t help / seems confusing 🤷
 
Hi John7
thanks so much for your reply.
I always wondered how non-physical fallen Angels could be
tormented in the same fire that unrepentant humans will be.

But I would still like to know why the very doctrine of
eternal conscious punishment of the unrepentant was
never ever taught in Old Testament times and first appeared
with the sayings of Jesus.

People in the Old Testament were told over and over again that
if they practiced sins they would suffer death.
But they were never warned that they would suffer death PLUS
an eternity of horrible torture in a fiery Hell.
It just seems to me that those people should have been warned.
I am wondering why this doctrine was withheld until the time of Christ.
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
Hi John7
thanks so much for your reply.
I always wondered how non-physical fallen Angels could be
tormented in the same fire that unrepentant humans will be.

But I would still like to know why the very doctrine of
eternal conscious punishment of the unrepentant was
never ever taught in Old Testament times and first appeared
with the sayings of Jesus.

People in the Old Testament were told over and over again that
if they practiced sins they would suffer death.
But they were never warned that they would suffer death PLUS
an eternity of horrible torture in a fiery Hell.
It just seems to me that those people should have been warned.
I am wondering why this doctrine was withheld until the time of Christ.
Click to expand...
  1. Fire from/of God has to do with his wrath
    Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Jeremiah 15:14 And I will make thee to pass with thine enemies into a land which thou knowest not: for a fire is kindled in mine anger, which shall burn upon you.

Jeremiah 17:4 And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

Lamentations 2:3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

Psalms 78:21 Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Psalm 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

Isaiah 42:24 Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. 25 Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart.
  1. There is an everlasing fire from God that is not quenched
    Ezekiel 20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 21:12 O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, **lest my fury go out like fire, and burn **that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Ezekiel 20:46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;
47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: **the flaming flame **shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

Amos 5:6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

So there is a fire of/from God which is everlasting, never to be quenched, related to His wrath and punishment. This, in my opinion, is the Gehenna, the Lake of Fire that Jesus makes explicit in the New Testament.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 
Hi John7,
thanks again for your posts.
I see what you are saying with those quotes, and I have seen them before too,
but have never thought that they could be used in support of Hell.
The Lord is speaking in metaphors. When his fire was kindled against
Israel, for example, the country would be attacked and ravaged by foreign
armies. Flaming fires did not descend from the skies and burn up the cities and towns.

Besides, we cannot name one priest or teacher, from the time of Moses right down
to the time of Jesus Christ, who ever, ever taught that unrepentant sinners would
be eternally and consciously tormented in a fiery hell. The doctrine simply did not exist.
What I don’t understand, is WHY this was not revealed to the Israelites.
After all, people didn’t just START committing sins worthy of Hellfire
at the time Christ appeared on earth. I’m just trying to understand,
if anybody has any idea, why people were not warned of such eternal consequences
until Christ came.
Try as we may, we cannot find, at any point in Israelite/Jewish history, any time
wherein the Jewish religion taught Eternal Conscious Punishment in Hellfire.
My question, again, if anyone has any idea, is Why is that??
 
I’ve often considered the question you’re bringing up. It may simply be that we don’t know all there is to know. Certainly there’s more to Judaism than the Tanakh, else the early Rabbis wouldn’t have felt compelled to write the Talmud. In the Talmud, if I recall correctly, there is, in fact, an allusion to Hell. But for the most part, the Jews and majority of Christians are using a butchered Old Testament. There are many seemingly “contradicting” passages in the Bible. Jehovah’s Witnessism teaches that there is no real afterlife, that is, no continuous afterlife. I would strongly recommend that you read the Deuterocanonicals, I am currently reading the Wisdom of Solomon, which is brimming with interesting titbits about Purgatory and Perdition. Also, read the Book of Isaias.

Ancient mythology points to the existence of what we call Purgatory. Both the words Hell and She’ol have common ancestral meanings related to concealment, or the grave. In most cases, the ancient conception of the afterlife is a gloomy sort of place. Christ mentions that sinners will go to Hell after the second death, where Hell and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The ancient Jews probably didn’t need to worry about it because they were going to the Bosom of Abraham to wait for the Messiah.

Another thought, if you will. If God had revealed everything He has to tell us in one book, i.e. The Holy Bible, in one sitting, do you think anyone would have believed it wholeheartedly? Do they now? Ask your atheist friend, you must have one, we all seem to… ask him/her about Hell. Most that don’t believe disbelieve because they’re too wimpy to believe in a god of judgement. But I digress. Faith is built slowly, over time. The Prophets looked forward to Christ. Christ spoke of Hell. The Divine Revelation of Yahweh occurred, is occurring and will continue to occur until the end of time. In the end this is all we need to know, it is an article of faith.
 
**Most that don’t believe disbelieve because they’re too wimpy to believe in a god of judgement. But I digress. Faith is built slowly, over time. **

I agree pretty much. But,
God warned people that they would DIE, right from the very beginning.

It just seems to me perplexing why He wouldn’t have warned people,
from the very beginning, that they would also be tortured for all eternity
in a raging fire.

I don’t understand why He would withhold that information.

Atheism is stupid, in my opinion, and yes I toyed with it too, to my shame.
All one has to do is study the design of the human body to see in it
the wisdom of a creator God.
 
You’ve got it the wrong way around.

The story the Bible tells is that, after losing immortality through Adam and Eve’s sin, humans started out still living a very long time, but gradually began to die sooner and sooner. Since people had originally expected not to die ever, and now had to dread dying sooner and sooner, it didn’t occur to them that there would be ANY afterlife, happy or sad. They expected rewards and punishments for sin during one’s lifetime, in the form of a happy blessed and wealthy life vs a cursed horrible life; or possibly in the form of having more or fewer descendants after one’s life was done. That’s it.

God first had to reveal the existence of any afterlife (the incredibly boring blah dark Sheol), and then of a good afterlife (that wasn’t just living the blah life in Sheol) – before He could possibly get around to the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, the locked-up Abyss, and so forth.

Re: Jews not believing in original sin

They sure as heck believe in the Fall, and that Adam and Eve’s death is still visited upon humans (seeing as how humans do die), and the whole schmole. Their interpretation of many of these facts may differ in emphasis, but Jews sure as heck don’t believe that everybody is born in the same condition as Adam and Eve before the Fall. (Or at least, the more traditional forms of Judaism don’t. Who knows what Reform or liberal/agnostic Jews will come up with?)

There’s a lot of things like this between religions, where “we don’t believe that” doesn’t mean “we don’t believe anything at all like that”.
 
They sure as heck believe in the Fall, and that Adam and Eve’s death is still visited upon humans (seeing as how humans do die), and the whole schmole. Their interpretation of many of these facts may differ in emphasis, but Jews sure as heck don’t believe that everybody is born in the same condition as Adam and Eve before the Fall. (Or at least, the more traditional forms of Judaism don’t. Who knows what Reform or liberal/agnostic Jews will come up with?)

Re: Reform / Liberal / Agnostic Jews
— I purposely did not visit Reform / Liberal / Agnostic Jewish websites.

As one online Rabbi explained it, he said that Jews believe that what God actually said to Adam and Eve was, in the day that you eat (of the forbidden fruit) you will become mortal.
He went on to say that their partaking of the forbidden fruit and becoming mortal was,
in a way, kind of a good thing,
because originally they were perfect and had no knowledge of good and evil, and therefore couldn’t basically go forwards or backwards. While eating of the fruit made them become mortal, it also gave them the ability to learn and grow which they (supposedly) didn’t really have while perfect.

As for Original Sin, meaning a moral stain on the soul inherited from Adam and Eve,
they do NOT accept that. They believe that all babies are born innocent with
a CLEAN slate, no stain of any sort inherited from Adam and Eve.
They do believe that we are born imperfect and mortal, but NOT born “sinners.”
I don’t understand that, because David in Psalm 51 seems to claim that his very nature
is corrupt (in sin my mother conceived me), and the O.T. scriptures state that the human “heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it?”

see these subjects also at jewsforjudaism.org

(( or try jewsforjudaism.com if that doesn’t work ))
 
While it is safe to say the Judaism does not accept original sin in the way that Christianity does, it is too simplistic to say that Judaism rejects sin transmitted by parents. For example, consider 2 Samuel 12:14: “Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Similarly, at least some versions of kabbalistic Judaism attribute the blemishing of the sparks to Adam’s sin – see for example here.
 
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