Hello Athiests!

[jam070406]

Morality wasn’t invented by Judeo-Christianity. Even dogs have emotions, travel in packs, and form very primitive rules of social conduct (within the constraints of their intellectual ability). Most mammals care for their young, form bonds with mates, and in the case of dogs form bonds with their owners (and protect them to the death in many cases). Do dogs have a soul? Are they governed by natural law … and if so then what the heck is natural law?

Are you really proposing that no society had laws proscribing murder, theft, etc. before the Old Testament was written & distributed? I assume your not (and I assume you have a sufficient grasp of history to know this is not the case). I assume you propose that this “natural law” you assert exists resides within man in the form of a soul, which is our spiritual medium to god.

However, the fact is the only thing we know is true is that if there is any sort of natural law it’s dictated by nature – in other words our biology.

Let’s face it third or twelfth century Christianity can hardly be compared to contemporary Christian mores. Back then it was perfectly within the bounds of so called natural or divine moral law to kill and conquer in the name of religion. Jews were treated like cattle, restricted to ghettos, and forced to wear identification badges. Blacks were herded into ships, carted off to southern plantations, and treated as inhumanely as any people on earth were ever treated. All of this under the blind eye of so called religious men (or in some cases it was the church itself that did these things).

So please folks … save the preaching about moral or natural law; because it’s just another old myth. Law has always been formed by us & no one else. We make our world better or worse. There’s no invisible devil to shift our culpability to when we screw up; just as there’s no invisible god guiding our actions to give credit to when we get things right.

Yeees, so you’ve tried to convince yourself. Your still in my prayers.

Btw, Francis Xavier was a missionary to Japan, so Japan is out. It’s been tainted as well.
I believe Max Kolbe was there as well.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Yeees, so you’ve tried to convince yourself. Your still in my prayers.

Btw, Francis Xavier was a missionary to Japan, so Japan is out. It’s been tainted as well.
I believe Max Kolbe was there as well.

OK so if a Christian steps foot on a country they become a Christian country? That’s absurd. Japan has virtually no Christians (and almost all Japanese people are raised with no religion whatsoever). So no they’re not out … indeed they fit the bill you were looking for perfectly.

 

[jam070406]

OK so if a Christian steps foot on a country they become a Christian country? That’s absurd. Japan has virtually no Christians (and almost all Japanese people are raised with no religion whatsoever). So no they’re not out … indeed they fit the bill you were looking for perfectly.

No, but the influence of Christianity has been there and you claimed it had not.

Yes, they did their best to persecute Christians didn’t they?

To assert that Japan holds some sort of moral high ground over the rest of the world is what is absurd.

 

[jam070406]

A simple google search shows that there are indeed Christians in Japan.

Not many (due to persecution) but more then “virtually none” as you claimed.

japan-guide.com/e/e2298.html

 

[humble_in_doubt]

A simple google search shows that there are indeed Christians in Japan.

Not many (due to persecution) but more then “virtually none” as you claimed.

japan-guide.com/e/e2298.html

most Japanese who are religious practice Shinto, which is a form of paganism (formerly emperor worship was incorporated into it). This is the indigenous Japanese religion & along with some elements of Buddhism and Confucianism form the essence of any religious culture the Japanese have (which is very slight). Christianity and Islam, although permitted (as Japan is tolerant of all minority religions at this point) is practiced by an extremely small minority of people in Japan (less than 1% of its population).

So yes less than 1% is a sufficiently small enough minority to fairly say “virtually none”!

 

[Nebogipfel]

josie_L:
Oh please do tell us what these more likely natural explanations are?

That a human being painted an picture of a woman wearing a blue robe on to a piece of cloth, without any supernatural help.

Or possibly someone saw a pattern of blotches on a piece of cloth that vaguely resembled a human figure, and decided to “help” a bit by filling in the dots. Again, no supernatural agencies required.

 

[Nebogipfel]

It is open ended for me. In other words, there’s no one thing among many that would have to happen in order to be persuasive. It could be what I least expect.

Some examples though that I would accept:

– Convincing evidence (physics) that necessitates creation ex nihilo.
– Convincing evidence (biology) that rejects naturalistic abiogenesis or evolution
– A few trillion years in hell or purgatory
– A verifiable event best explained as a miracle rather than a natural occurrence
– Specific, unambiguous, and improbable events in Revelation happening

Hospitals routinely employing prayer-healers to help in operating theaters would certainly push me more towards the theistic side.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

man … glad to see there’s other non-theists on this board

 

[Nebogipfel]

I know the answer. It’s been given to us by your arguments in these threads. All one has to do is read between the lines.

There is a moral issue that you and the Church don’t see eye to eye on. Now you come in here to try and discredit the Church (perhaps to ease your own mind and conscience, I can’t say.) But somehow you thought it would be easy and Catholics would roll over to your superior intellect. Which didn’t happen. And around and around we go.

Why do you guys find it so hard to accept that, after calm and considered reflection, someone can come to the honest conclusion that they see no reason to believe in any kind of divine agency, and they honestly believe that the Church is just plain wrong about a great many things?

I am constant astounded by the belief that some people have that the internet gives them the power to read the minds of others.

 

[Nebogipfel]

It would seem that the atheists that are posting in these threads are former Christians with Christian upbringing so, one can make that case that the Christain upbringing had an influence on the conscience and formed any sort of “goodness” (relative to the mind of the athiest) that the atheist held on to and continues to, after apostatizing completely.

So apostate Muslims could not have any kind of conscience, or act in a way that is congruent with “goodness”? You might want to have a chat with Ayaan Hirsi Ali about that.

Perhaps you can provide a location with no Christian (or simply theist for that matter) influence where the people were atheist from birth maintaining that belief throughout life in a society with no theistic thought or influence.

You could drop over to Dawkins’ place and ask. True there are many apostates there, but there are also many people who say they have never had any kind of religious belief. You could ask them.

 

[Nebogipfel]

man … glad to see there’s other non-theists on this board

You are not alone…

 

[josie_L]

Speaking for myself – yes I was raised Christian (Catholic to be more specific) & obviously that upbringing influences my behavior to some degree (probably quite a bit). Perhaps a better case to examine atheism would be a country like Japan; where virtually all of its citizens are raised without any religion at all – yet they seem to be among the best behaved people on earth.

I just did – Japan! We can only wish that we had such a well behaved society (in fact the same holds true for any Christian western country & all other theist countries for that matter).

**To be honest I think this is a terrible argument. If you’re going to say that the sinner is cut off from Christ … then what’s the point of it all? Didn’t Christ give Christians a mandate to visit those in prison? Didn’t he forgive the worse of men for their indiscretions?

As far as the question of whether or not those who once were believers, but then walk away (or commit a sin that’s so bad it can’t be forgiven) reside in a state of irreversible apostasy – isn’t that a subject of intense debate within the Christian community?** I’ve never heard of anyone being turned away at the confessional and told their sin was too grave to be forgiven. Isn’t it true that even mobsters find solace in the confessional & gain forgiveness for their horrible crimes.****

I believe Jam is refering to people who sin but do not repent, they are indeed separated/ing from God if they are in mortal sin (in this life and the next). It’s the reason we have a place called hell. A sinner however who repents knows the boundless grace of God, for his mercy is given to everyone who seeks it.

 

[josie_L]

So apostate Muslims could not have any kind of conscience, or act in a way that is congruent with “goodness”? You might want to have a chat with Ayaan Hirsi Ali about that.

That is not what he is saying at all. Don’t miscontrue his meaning. And furthermore, Islam moralistically (to some degree) is connected to Judaism and Christianity. So your above example doesn’t quite qualify.

You could drop over to Dawkins’ place and ask. True there are many apostates there, but there are also many people who say they have never had any kind of religious belief. You could ask them.

We believe in a natural moral law, as such, we do know that atheists and the like can be righteous (as God created us in his image), however, it needs to be delineated in a way that sets the standard in absolute terms.

 

[josie_L]

Why do you guys find it so hard to accept that, after calm and considered reflection, someone can come to the honest conclusion that they see no reason to believe in any kind of divine agency, and they honestly believe that the Church is just plain wrong about a great many things?

I am constant astounded by the belief that some people have that the internet gives them the power to read the minds of others.

And why do you guys find it so hard to accept the fact that after calm and considered reflection we believe God exists. And as such find it difficult to speak to Atheists who think they should dissuade us of our beliefs. Do you think that your statements about the non-existence of God will not be fervently argued by us? Do you think we won’t be asking you difficult questions in order to defend your position? Did we force you to come to CAF (only to have you complain that we don’t understand you)?

And I am constantly astounded by how shocked atheists seem to be when they discover we’re not so easily fooled.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

josie_L:
I believe Jam is refering to people who sin but do not repent, they are indeed separated/ing from God if they are in mortal sin (in this life and the next). It’s the reason we have a place called hell. A sinner however who repents knows the boundless grace of God, for his mercy is given to everyone who seeks it.

OK so then what would be the status of persons in prison who identify themselves as Christians of whatever stripe? I assume most of them were raised Christian (since most Americans are); and they obviously screwed up in life – but they’re at least repentant enough to remain professing Christians.

So what will you say then – they were Christians prior to their crimes, during the moment they sinned they weren’t Christians, but now that they’re tucked away in prison praying for redemption they get to be Christians again?

Boy I’d love to see what you would say if I made the same sort of absurd excuses for non-theists?

 

[josie_L]

That a human being painted an picture of a woman wearing a blue robe on to a piece of cloth, without any supernatural help.

Or possibly someone saw a pattern of blotches on a piece of cloth that vaguely resembled a human figure, and decided to “help” a bit by filling in the dots. Again, no supernatural agencies required.

I guess you don’t know much about the tilma of Guadelupe do you?

[Prof. Victor Campa] Mendoza noted Our Lady’s tilma shows the radiant rays of the sun surrounding her as she appeared, wearing a blue-green mantle that depicts the universe.

Also fascinating is the pattern of stars strewn across her mantle. According to Mendoza the pattern mirrors the exact position of constellations on the day her image appeared on the tilma, Dec. 12, 1531. He used a graph to prove it.

It has been found that by imposing a topographical map of central Mexico on the Virgin’s dress, the mountains, rivers and principal lakes coincide with the decoration on this dress, he said.

The fact that the tilma has remained perfectly preserved since 1531 is a miracle in itself, according to Mendoza. After more than four centuries, Juan Diego’s tilma retains the same freshness and the same lively colour as when it was new.

Analysis shows that there is no trace of drawing or sketching under the colour, even though perfectly recognizable retouches were done on the original.

He said a professor from NASA conducted an independent analysis in 1979 and concluded that there is no way to explain the quality of the pigments used for the pink dress, the blue veil, the face and the hands, the permanence of the colours, or the vividness of the colours after several centuries, during which they ordinarily should have deteriorated.

Much research has also been conducted regarding mysterious images that appear in Our Lady’s eyes. The images reflected in her retinas are of the moment when she left her imprint on Juan Diego’s tilma and Mendoza showed enlarged pictures of those images.

Peruvian Jose Aste Tonsmann, an expert in digital image processing, produced them. The figures in Our Lady’s eyes’ reflection show the people historically known to have been present at the unveiling of the tilma in 1531 - Bishop Zumarraga, his interpreter, Juan Diego and several family members.

Further proof of the supernatural origin of the tilma comes from St. Luke, who in 71 AD painted a portrait of Our Lady that is remarkably similar to Our Lady of Guadalupe, noted Mendoza. “This is a true sign that this an act of God,” he said.

sognodargento.blogspot.com/2007/06/scientists-certify-our-lady-of.html

 

[jam070406]

Why do you guys find it so hard to accept that, after calm and considered reflection, someone can come to the honest conclusion that they see no reason to believe in any kind of divine agency, and they honestly believe that the Church is just plain wrong about a great many things?

I am constant astounded by the belief that some people have that the internet gives them the power to read the minds of others.

Nobody was talking about you, your conclusion or the other poster’s conclusion, for that matter. I haven’t had to “read anyone’s mind.” He laid it out pretty clear. The previous poster’'s beef is the Church’s stance on IVF and he has attempted to discredit the Church from past actions to show that it is wrong on it’s ruling against IVF.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

oh gosh not Fatima

 

[jam070406]

You could drop over to Dawkins’ place and ask. True there are many apostates there, but there are also many people who say they have never had any kind of religious belief. You could ask them.

No thanks. And I would also venture to guess that those people live in a society influenced by Christian morality, so it wouldn’t prove anything.

 

[josie_L]

OK so then what would be the status of persons in prison who identify themselves as Christians of whatever stripe? I assume most of them were raised Christians (since most Americans are) and they obviously screwed up in life – but they’re at least repentant enough to retain a profession of Christian faith.

So what will you say then – they were Christians, during the moment they sinned they weren’t Christians, but now that they’re tucked away in prison praying for redemption they’re Christians again? Boy I’d love to see what you would say if I made the same sort of absurd excuses for non-theists?

No, they were still Christians when they committed their crimes, but they were not acting as Christians. It’s that simple.

P.S. Please don’t confuse me for someone who believes in OSAS.