Hello from a confused ex

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iang

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I’ve been hanging around here for a couple of days and thought it was about time to introduce myself and my problem. Moderators, feel free to move this to a different forum if you feel that is appropriate. Although I’m English, I now live and work in beautiful Sweden (why is a long story which I might go into another time).

I was born into a secular Jewish household 47 years ago in London. I did all the normal things a Jewish boy did but I must admit that it was more because my parents made me do it rather than wanting to or even believing in the mumbo jumbo. By the time I was 15 I was a strong atheist and remained so for the next 15 years (during which period I met and fell in love the woman I was to marry and am proud to say that we are still going strong 25 years later).

I was 30 and living in Aberdeen, Scotland at the time. As I said earlier, I was an atheist and had been for many years. I hadn’t been thinking about God or suffering from doubts, anxiety or anything. I was happy. One night we (my wife and I) watched an Everyman programme on TV (for the majority here who are not British, Everyman was a weekly magazine programme that took an in-depth look at spiritual and philosophical issues). It was about Medjugorje. During the programme (and this is difficult to put into words) I somehow became convinced that what I was watching was true and that the Christian God was real. No visions; no voices; no signs; no wonders: Just an almost inexpressible feeling that this was it; that I had had an encounter with the living God. And so my new life as a Christian started. For the past 17 years I’ve been an on and off Christian, experimenting with just about every denomination you can name and many other faiths (especially Buddhism) as well. At some point a long the way I became a Catholic.

I won’t bore you with all the details of what followed except that 6 years after my experience I suffered what we thought at the time was a simple stress induced breakdown. After spending several weeks in hospital I was diagnosed as suffering from bi-polar disorder 2. If you don’t know this means I tend to cycle from depression to mania (hence the old name of manic-depression) but tending to stay in the depressive part of the cycle most of the time. And of course we’re not talking about ordinary mood swings but what can be life-threatening depressions if not caught in time and treated. I don’t take any medications now except when I feel the need or my wife notices a change in my behaviour.

Why am I telling you this? Well, one of the many symptoms of psychotic illnesses can be vivid religious experience. As a result of knowing this, I’ve found it impossible to be sure if my encounter was really with God or with the chemical imbalances of my own brain. And this is despite the fact that I wasn’t aware of having an illness at the time. In fact, I don’t even know if I was ill at the time. I’ve discussed this with my wife many times and we just don’t know, but it seems to be prudent for the sake of my health to assume the experience was not genuine. I say that because a religion has not made me happy. So I decided to abandon Christianity for good. I generally feel happier and healthier when I’m not seeking the answer to everything and just accepting life as it is from day to day, but I keep getting this nagging feeling of discomfort at the back of my mind that seems to force me to look again. And so I’m here. Believe it or not I found out about this place on Internet Infidels so if God is real, then his ways really are mysterious 🙂

I’m probably an uncommitted agnostic at the moment but if I can find a way back… Well, who knows, but it must be non-stressful. I would appreciate any comments you have to make, especially from anybody who has experience of mental health issues.

Ian
 
welcome to the forums, there are enough of B-Ps out here to have a club so we hear you, babe.

just because religious experiences are sometimes reported by people dealing with mental illness does not mean they are always the result of mental illness. (just because you are paranoid does not mean they aren’t out to get you). Most likely that first experience awakened something in you, from your childhood, a respect for Truth and acknowledgement that Truth exists, and that we can know Truth.

it is quite right not to use such experiences as a guide to how “holy” or “right” you are in your spiritual life. Obviously regardless of your beliefs on an intellectual level, you are very aware that there is something going on in the spiritual level, and that just because at times part of your mental process is disordered, does not mean that on the whole your brain isn’t still functioning (after all, you are still alive) and that there aren’t other levels of function besides the cognitive, emotional etc.

don’t be to quick to let therapists, writers etc. decide for you what is valid and what is not in your own experience.
 
Dear Ian,

I know you may be unsure of your emotions, and to some degree your reasoning as you go through your BP cycle, but may I suggest something? Make an honest attempt to abandon yourself to God. Pray to Him and ask Him for Faith. At some point we all have to let God take over. We just have to give that “Yes.”

I have experience with depression. It can be immobilizing… and my family history indicates that it can be dangerous too. I find that although my faith rarely makes me “feel good”, I am at peace. I’ve learned to use those faculties which are more reliable for me when practicing and learning more about the Faith.

I will be praying for you. Keep searching for the Truth. If you do, I think you’ll find that God has provided a place for you in His Church. There is so much that the Catholic Faith can do for you, besides helping you gain eternal life with God. It may not make you feel good, as it is not an easy road, but it may provide you with the solid ground that will help you live with BP in relative peace. Its one of those graces which I am very thankful for.

God bless Ian,

Agricola
 
Interenet INfadels, must be a baptest sit! 🙂 sorry, should’t be sarcastic on such a serious topic.

First of all, Christianity is only stressful when we make it that way. you are probably a very intelectual person, yes? My brother in law is very smart and over thinks EVERYTHING and by doing so, he drivees himself nuts and can never come to any deffinate conclusion. so my first order of advice would be to not over think so much.

You’ve got to reach out with your heart! Part of faith is of the mind, but a lot of it is of the heart. I don’t want this to sound insulting, I heard this froma Jewish man. he said, “Christianity, from what I can tell is a very emotional religion, where as Judisim is more of the mind.” now I Know you were never a practacing Jew, really, bu tI imagine that you were raised with this kind of mind set as well, to approace everything with a critical eye. and there’s something to be said for that when it comes to hard sciences and math and stuff like that. But God cannot be approached like that.

Jesus said, “seek and ye’ shall find. Knock and the door shall be open to you” so you are seeking now. this is a good thing. Do you pray about it at all? you are not sure if there is a god, but maybe you should reach out and pray anyway. after all, someone once said, “I’d rather live as if there were a God and find out I was wrong, than life as if there wasn’t a god and find out there was.” I have no idea who said that.

Read you Bible. Go to Mass. you don’t even have to participate or anything, just go and say, “God if you’re here, give me faith to see you.”

Don’t foccus on your illness so much. I’ve got a friend who is bi-poler and he had a “vision” once, although it was pretty wierd. He doesn’t base his faith upon it, but he doesn’t let his illness get in the way of him believing in God.

I’m no great thealogen, so I hope this helps you some.
I’ll say a prayer for you.
Sue
 
Hey there,

just to offer another viewpoint… but maybe your BP disorder, though a challenge, was God’s way of bring you to Him. It was the religious experience that brought you to Him in the first place, but it takes a strong committment to be faithful. Don’t give up! 👍 Don’t look back and call your experience invalid. You had that experience and it meant a lot to you. God is calling. 😃
 
Medjugorje has been indirectly responsible for many miraculous conversions, so you are not alone. There have literally been thousands upon thousands of conversions due to people travelling to Medjugorje or even just learning about it. May you find what you’re looking for.
 
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iang:
I’ve been hanging around here for a couple of days and thought it was about time to introduce myself and my problem. Moderators, feel free to move this to a different forum if you feel that is appropriate. Although I’m English, I now live and work in beautiful Sweden (why is a long story which I might go into another time).

I was born into a secular Jewish household 47 years ago in London. I did all the normal things a Jewish boy did but I must admit that it was more because my parents made me do it rather than wanting to or even believing in the mumbo jumbo. By the time I was 15 I was a strong atheist and remained so for the next 15 years (during which period I met and fell in love the woman I was to marry and am proud to say that we are still going strong 25 years later).

I was 30 and living in Aberdeen, Scotland at the time. As I said earlier, I was an atheist and had been for many years. I hadn’t been thinking about God or suffering from doubts, anxiety or anything. I was happy. One night we (my wife and I) watched an Everyman programme on TV (for the majority here who are not British, Everyman was a weekly magazine programme that took an in-depth look at spiritual and philosophical issues). It was about Medjugorje. During the programme (and this is difficult to put into words) I somehow became convinced that what I was watching was true and that the Christian God was real. No visions; no voices; no signs; no wonders: Just an almost inexpressible feeling that this was it; that I had had an encounter with the living God. And so my new life as a Christian started. For the past 17 years I’ve been an on and off Christian, experimenting with just about every denomination you can name and many other faiths (especially Buddhism) as well. At some point a long the way I became a Catholic.

I won’t bore you with all the details of what followed except that 6 years after my experience I suffered what we thought at the time was a simple stress induced breakdown. After spending several weeks in hospital I was diagnosed as suffering from bi-polar disorder 2. If you don’t know this means I tend to cycle from depression to mania (hence the old name of manic-depression) but tending to stay in the depressive part of the cycle most of the time. And of course we’re not talking about ordinary mood swings but what can be life-threatening depressions if not caught in time and treated. I don’t take any medications now except when I feel the need or my wife notices a change in my behaviour.

Why am I telling you this? Well, one of the many symptoms of psychotic illnesses can be vivid religious experience. As a result of knowing this, I’ve found it impossible to be sure if my encounter was really with God or with the chemical imbalances of my own brain. And this is despite the fact that I wasn’t aware of having an illness at the time. In fact, I don’t even know if I was ill at the time. I’ve discussed this with my wife many times and we just don’t know, but it seems to be prudent for the sake of my health to assume the experience was not genuine. I say that because a religion has not made me happy. So I decided to abandon Christianity for good. I generally feel happier and healthier when I’m not seeking the answer to everything and just accepting life as it is from day to day, but I keep getting this nagging feeling of discomfort at the back of my mind that seems to force me to look again. And so I’m here. Believe it or not I found out about this place on Internet Infidels so if God is real, then his ways really are mysterious 🙂

I’m probably an uncommitted agnostic at the moment but if I can find a way back… Well, who knows, but it must be non-stressful. I would appreciate any comments you have to make, especially from anybody who has experience of mental health issues.

Ian
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What you said " no visions, no voices, no signs, no wonder" to me is a clue. I don’t know much about the illness you have, but I’m pretty sure that what happened at that particular time, was a spiritual awakening type of experience.What happens is that it is an unexplainable indescribable" feeling" or “knowing” that you experience. then the “thirst” for knowlege of God begins. So you went through that search by going to different churches and religions. In search of God.The Lord whispers to your soul,and if you listen very carefully He will make Himself maifest in your life. You have first got to make the concious decision to surrender youor life to Him and let Him lead the way. He is calling you, beleive in Him and trust in Him. A spiritual journey is awaiting you, the invitation to eternal life has arrived, but you must respond…now.

Blessings to you. :love:
 
Thank you all so much for the kind words. I’m going to ponder this (and maybe even pray 😃 ) over the weekend. I’ll get back again in a couple of days.

Sue, yes I do think too much about things. I have always had a need to have all the answers. I know this is mostly pride so I can always win the argument, but its hard to change a lifetimes bad habit.

Again, thanks.
 
Welcome to the forums, Ian! I am sure you will recieve the answers you are seeking here. On top of many other bi-polar people, there are also many ex-atheists and ex-agnostics on our boards who have been able to reconcile their pasts with their Catholicism. I would like to take this opportunity to let you know, and remind our senior members, of our policy concerning mental health discussion, which I will post below. So long as this thread stays on topic (which, if I understand correctly, is how to discern if a message is from the Lord, from oneself or other organic causes such as mental health issues, or from the devil) then you should have no problems. I would have to close the thread, though, if it started veering into medical advice.

You might like to check out our and hang around for a while to be able to see all the threads that touch on the very same issues you are having. It is not uncommon at all to wonder if a religious experience is from this world or another.

Welcome, again!
Catherine

NOTICE:

After much thought, the moderation and administrative staff have decided not to allow solicitation on the forums of people with specific health concerns. While well-intentioned, it does create potentially serious problems.

It is not possible for reliable support to be given in an open forum community. Any advice could, potentially, be dangerous. People experiencing specific health problems should seek a referral to a certified health professional.

Also, CAF simply does not have sufficient moderation and administrative resources at this time to closely monitor all such threads.

However, it is certainly legitimate to also seek spiritual help for dealing with health problems. Those in need of prayers and the like are encouraged to post in the Spirituality forum. Nevertheless, if such threads drift into medical advice, we will be forced to close them down.
 
Thanks, Catherine. Can I just say, in case anybody wondered, I neither want or need health advice. My only concern here is to finally understand the source of my experience and then to figure out of there is a way back for me Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. My bi-polar just complicates the issue a bit :rolleyes:
 
My only concern here is to finally understand the source of my experience and then to figure out of there is a way back for me Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. My bi-polar just complicates the issue a bit
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Rather than rely on emotions why not try reason? Try to find the answers to these questions:
  1. Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah of the Old Covenant?
  2. Is Jesus Christ God Himself?
  3. Is the Catholic Church the true Church founded by Christ?
Start researching the history of the Catholic Church. Maybe someone more knowledgable on the subject will you give you a good idea on where to start. Emailing the coming home network with questions you have might be a good idea:
chnetwork.org/
 
Good point Madia!

The great thing about Catholicism is that there is a reason for everything, which can be researched through history back to the time of the apostles and Jesus, and often times much further than that. And, in Catholicism, there is a whole lot of leeway in personal beliefs. The church, for example, has only officially interpreted a very small handful of scripture verses and each Catholic is free to read the rest of the Bible literally or figuratively at his wish. As such, some Catholics are staunch 6-day creationists and some are staunch evolutionists. Either view is compatible with Catholicism because the church does not attempt to answer scientific questions. In this way, we also have different traditions, and even entire worldviews, that are acceptable. For example, there is the Augustinian tradition and the Thomistic tradition (of St. Thomas Aquinas) which sometimes contradict each other. But it is OK because it is a worldview or a framework and not actual dogmatic teaching. The Catholic Church is actually some 23 churches all united under the papacy. We have 2 Western churches (the Latin church being the one all people are familiar with), and the rest are Eastern churches. The Eastern Churches often times have different worldviews and traditions, but have the same uniting dogmas. We have a forum for discussion of Eastern Christianity here as well.

I am not telling you all this to confuse you, but to show that the Catholic Church is very large. Very few of the beliefs are biding on the faithful. And the history is very extensive. As such, it can become very overwhelming to try to study Catholicism without having a starting point. So I would like to suggest that you pick one area that you are interested in learning about and then branch out from there. For instance, many atheists and agnostics have misconceptions about the role science plays in Catholicism, so they are interested in learning about the role of evolution and the other sciences. Others are worried about the supposed restrictiveness of sex that is touted in the media. If this is a concern, you might like to look into the Theology of the Body or works which explain it such as Christopher West’s book on the subject. Most find that the church is really quite liberal, with a prudential balance. Another great source of actual Catholic beliefs is the Catechism. This is a compendium of all Catholic teachings, with references to the scriptures and other historical documents. Unfortunately, conversing with Catholics in one’s own life does not always prove to be beneficial. Right now, there are many Catholics who are not knowledgeable about their own faith and will repeat myths and misconceptions that the media tells them. Don’t let this get you down. There is a renewal of faith spreading across our world in these desolate times and many people are finding God where they were told He did not exist. That some Catholics are on the same road you are, learning about the faith, should not be a detraction. Speaking of which, if you are trying to figure out if God even exists, you might be attracted to Aquinas’ works such as Summa Theologica. Aquinas is very Aristotelian and has five proofs of God’s existence through non-theological means. On the other hand, you might feel more comfortable with Eastern theologians who do not speak in what we know (positives) but in what we know is not (negatives). This provides for much more leeway in the individual’s life but less scholastics as well.

So basically, what I am saying, is that the church is a very large house with many rooms inside it. I’m sure there is one you would feel comfortable in. The problem, upon first opening the front door, is that many see how big the house is and either wander around aimlessly or they feel overwhelmed and walk right back out. So if you let us know some about your concerns or questions, then we can help direct you to the proper place to get your answers.
 
Welcome to the Forums !!
I too suffer from severe Depression and take medications for it.
I had a powerful religious experience many years ago, and then a few months later had my first nervous breakdown. So, like you, I doubted whether my experience was psychological or “of God.”
I’ve thought about it a lot, and I’ve concluded that my experience was definitely “of God” because it changed the direction of my life for the better, permanently.

I know that depression is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, and yet I didn’t fall into depression SOLELY because of a chemical imbalance. People hurt me very seriously, and that triggered the depression which became chronic.
So don’t just throw your spiritual experience out the window or chalk it up to chemical reactions in your brain, my friend.
God is very, very real, and yes, your finding these forums is most likely a gentle work of the Holy Spirit.
Please stay around, you will learn a lot here !!
God bless you.
Love,
Jaypeeto4 (aka Jaypeeto3)
 
Once again, many thanks for the kind words, thoughts and prayers. Before I comment specifically on some of your points I’d like to make a general statement of my thoughts. Even though it is entirely possible that my experience was delusional as a result of illness, I have concluded that this isn’t likely for a number of reasons, the most important being that I wasn’t ill at the time and didn’t become so for 5 years. So if the experience wasn’t from within me then I can’t come up with any better explanation than it was from God. Exciting!

Now, I must tell you about what happened next after that experience. You must understand that I had no Christian knowledge at all so had no idea how to proceed. Although my wife was agnostic, she was raised as a Methodist so at least had some idea of what I was talking about. She said she’d find someone to talk to. Almost at random, she found something called the Diocese of Aberdeen in the telephone directory and we went to see someone. I assumed that this was Church of England or something which is pretty daft as I was in Scotland 🙂 Of course, it turned out to be the Catholic diocese and we spoke to a very kind deacon and his wife. So my first 2 Christian experiences were catholic. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
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Agricola:
Make an honest attempt to abandon yourself to God. Pray to Him and ask Him for Faith. At some point we all have to let God take over. We just have to give that “Yes.”
Click to expand...
I’ve been trying to pray but am finding it really hard to focus. I’m not really sure why this is or what I can/should do about it.
SueKram:
Jesus said, “seek and ye’ shall find. Knock and the door shall be open to you” so you are seeking now. this is a good thing. Do you pray about it at all? you are not sure if there is a god, but maybe you should reach out and pray anyway. after all, someone once said, “I’d rather live as if there were a God and find out I was wrong, than life as if there wasn’t a god and find out there was.” I have no idea who said that.
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As I said aboive, Sue, I’m finding prayer difficult, but I really wanted to comment on your quote. At first this looks a reasonable but isn’t it really just an inverted form of Pascals wager? I think that is the worst of reasons for believing anything.

I’m posting this in parts as its too long for a single post. Sorry.
 
joyfullmess:
What you said " no visions, no voices, no signs, no wonder" to me is a clue. I don’t know much about the illness you have, but I’m pretty sure that what happened at that particular time, was a spiritual awakening type of experience.What happens is that it is an unexplainable indescribable" feeling" or “knowing” that you experience. then the “thirst” for knowlege of God begins.
Click to expand...
Well that’s the conclusion I’ve come to as well. Lets hope we’re right
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Madia:
  1. Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah of the Old Covenant?
  2. Is Jesus Christ God Himself?
  3. Is the Catholic Church the true Church founded by Christ?
Click to expand...
These are tough questions and I don’t think we can ever know with certainty as to their truthfullness. I would have thought that is where faith begins and is nutured in the face of doubt. To focus on your 3rd question, I’m not convinced that the Jewish Jesus (Yeshua ben Yosef) said anything that’s been recorded in the gospels to suggest he was founding a new religion. I’d be happy to be shown that I’m wrong BTW, the link is useful and I’ll be using it. Thanks.
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Forest-Pine:
in Catholicism, there is a whole lot of leeway in personal beliefs
Click to expand...
This is one of the things that has always attracted me to the Catholic Church but I still have some big problems, particularly the Imaculate Conception. Now I know this is dogmatic teaching, but can you be a practicing Catholic without believing this. Many tears ago a Catholic friend told me that when your beliefs are in conflict with church teaching then, after prayer and consideration you have the right to follow the dictats of your conscience rather than church teaching. Is this true?
didn’t become so for 5 years. So if the experience wasn’t from within me then I can’t come up with any better explanation than it was from God. Exciting!

Now, I must tell you about what happened next after that experience. You must understand that I had no Christian knowledge at all so had no idea how to proceed. Although my wife was agnostic, she was raised as a Methodist so at least had some idea of what I was talking about. She said she’d find someone to talk to. Almost at random, she found something called the Diocese of Aberdeen in the telephone directory and we went to see someone. I assumed that this was Church of England or something which is pretty daft as I was in Scotland 🙂 Of course, it turned out to be the Catholic diocese and we spoke to a very kind deacon and his wife. So my first 2 Christian experiences were catholic. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
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Agricola:
Make an honest attempt to abandon yourself to God. Pray to Him and ask Him for Faith. At some point we all have to let God take over. We just have to give that “Yes.”
Click to expand...
I’ve been trying to pray but am finding it really hard to focus. I’m not really sure why this is or what I can/should do about it.
SueKram:
Jesus said, “seek and ye’ shall find. Knock and the door shall be open to you” so you are seeking now. this is a good thing. Do you pray about it at all? you are not sure if there is a god, but maybe you should reach out and pray anyway. after all, someone once said, “I’d rather live as if there were a God and find out I was wrong, than life as if there wasn’t a god and find out there was.” I have no idea who said that.
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As I said aboive, Sue, I’m finding prayer difficult, but I really wanted to comment on your quote. At first this looks a reasonable but isn’t it really just an inverted form of Pascals wager? I think that is the worst of reasons for believing anything.
joyfullmess:
What you said " no visions, no voices, no signs, no wonder" to me is a clue. I don’t know much about the illness you have, but I’m pretty sure that what happened at that particular time, was a spiritual awakening type of experience.What happens is that it is an unexplainable indescribable" feeling" or “knowing” that you experience. then the “thirst” for knowlege of God begins.
Click to expand...
Well that’s the conclusion I’ve come to as well. Lets hope we’re right 😉
40.png
Madia:
  1. Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah of the Old Covenant?
  2. Is Jesus Christ God Himself?
  3. Is the Catholic Church the true Church founded by Christ?
Click to expand...
These are tough questions and I don’t think we can ever know with certainty as to their truthfullness. I would have thought that is where faith begins and is nutured in the face of doubt. To focus on your 3rd question, I’m not convinced that the Jewish Jesus (Yeshua ben Yosef) said anything that’s been recorded in the gospels to suggest he was founding a new religion. I’d be happy to be shown that I’m wrong 🙂 BTW, the link is useful and I’ll be using it. Thanks.
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Forest-Pine:
I am not telling you all this to confuse you
Click to expand...
Are you sure 🙂
So I seem to be on a journey to/back to God. I’m still not sure about the Catholic Church though, but I’ll hang on in there and see what develops.

Ian
 
joyfullmess:
What you said " no visions, no voices, no signs, no wonder" to me is a clue. I don’t know much about the illness you have, but I’m pretty sure that what happened at that particular time, was a spiritual awakening type of experience.What happens is that it is an unexplainable indescribable" feeling" or “knowing” that you experience. then the “thirst” for knowlege of God begins.
Click to expand...
Well that’s the conclusion I’ve come to as well. Lets hope we’re right 😉
40.png
Madia:
  1. Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah of the Old Covenant?
  2. Is Jesus Christ God Himself?
  3. Is the Catholic Church the true Church founded by Christ?
Click to expand...
These are tough questions and I don’t think we can ever know with certainty as to their truthfullness. I would have thought that is where faith begins and is nutured in the face of doubt. To focus on your 3rd question, I’m not convinced that the Jewish Jesus (Yeshua ben Yosef) said anything that’s been recorded in the gospels to suggest he was founding a new religion. I’d be happy to be shown that I’m wrong. BTW, the link is useful and I’ll be using it. Thanks.
40.png
Forest-Pine:
in Catholicism, there is a whole lot of leeway in personal beliefs
Click to expand...
This is one of the things that has always attracted me to the Catholic Church but I still have some big problems, particularly the Imaculate Conception. Now I know this is dogmatic teaching, but can you be a practicing Catholic without believing this. Many years ago a Catholic friend told me that when your beliefs are in conflict with church teaching then, after prayer and consideration you have the right to follow the dictats of your conscience rather than church teaching. Is this true?
40.png
Forest-Pine:
I am not telling you all this to confuse you
Click to expand...
Are you sure 🙂

So I seem to be on a journey to/back to God. I’m still not sure about the Catholic Church though, but I’ll hang on in there and see what develops.

Ian
 
This is one of the things that has always attracted me to the Catholic Church but I still have some big problems, particularly the Imaculate Conception.
Click to expand...
Maybe you’re getting confused with it. First off, all mankind including Mary needed a Savior. Even though Mary never sinned she still needed a Savior. However, the way Mary was saved vs. the way the rest of us were/are saved was different. Mary was preserved from original sin whereas the rest of us are stained by it.

Let me try this example I heard. Say a woman is walking in front of a camouflaged pit. She doesn’t see it and falls right into it. The sheriff is alerted and pulls her out of the pit. So the sheriff saved her from the pit. Another woman is walking in front of a camouflaged pit. She doesn’t see it but before she can fall into it the sheriff pulls her back. So the sheriff also saved her from the pit. Both women were in need of someone to save them from the pit but they were saved in different ways.

Think of a patient who got vaccinated by a doctor for a deadly disease vs. a patient who was cured by a doctor for that same deadly disease after they contracted it. Both were in need of a doctor to prevent them from dying due to the disease. However, the patient who was vaccinated never experienced the effects of the disease whereas the patient who wasn’t vaccinated did. Both were saved from dying by the doctor yet their method of salvation from the disease was different.

God, by a singular grace in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, preserved Mary from all stain of original sin. The rest of us are saved from original sin after experiencing the stain of it. Here’s the document Ineffabilis Deus if you’re interested in it:
ewtn.com/LIBRARY/PAPALDOC/P9INEFF.htm
I’d be happy to be shown that I’m wrong.
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How about Luke 22:20 where Jesus establishes the new covenant?
 
Thanks Madia. I understand your analogy but I’m not sure its really valid. I guess the question really is why would Mary have to be free from sin (orginal or otherwise)? And of course why would she have to retain her virginity perpetually (is that dogmatic teaching as well?), especially as you have to do some scriptual gymnastics to get over the mention of Jesus’ brothers?
How about Luke 22:20 where Jesus establishes the new covenant?
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No, not really. Or at least I don’t read this passage that way. Can you elaborate a little please.
 
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As the original topic appears to be thoroughly discussed, this thread is now closed.
 
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