Hello! I'm a Deist! Ask me anything!

[in_servitude]

What do Deists do with events that demonstrate supernatural or preternatural affects on the world?

For example, the events in Fatima on October 13, 1917? This was a predicted event, so tens of thousands of people were present to see it. Do Deists believe that supernatural events occur like this not because God is choosing to interfere, but because there is some other source of power involved?

 

[SteveVH]

God is a word.

Spoken by who?

Before “creation” was exactly what I’ve already said. It’s called nothing, nothingness or pre-existence. Everybody knows the universe explodes into existence out of nothing. The vast majority of human beings have no understanding of what “nothing” is. They can’t comprehend what does exist, in the time and place of no physicality.

Yes, of course, before creation there was nothingness, except for God. Is that suppose to be some new revelation?

There isn’t anything “new age” about what I say. I speak absolute truth.

You speak “absolute truth”? And from whom did you receive this authority?

And, if I may ask, why do you state your religion as “Catholic”?

 

[Deist314]

i spaced these to make it easy to answer.

Do you believe in the Apostles Creed?

Do you have a creed?

Do you deny the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

How do you explain miracles during Jesus’ lifetime and those done by the Apostles after His resurrection and ascension?

How do you explain miracles performed since then?

How do you reconcile the words of the gospel where Jesus makes it clear He will be with us until the end of time and that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church?

Do you accept the bible as God’s word? I think you said you are a Unitarian Universalist, which i have read do not even use the bible, so I should ask if some Deists accept the bible as God’s word?

(formerly “lutheran farmer”)

No I do not believe in the Apostles Creed.

Yes I have a personal creed and would be more than willing to share it if you wanted to know it!

I do not deny the life and death of Jesus, there is enough historical evidence for me to believe that but I do deny the divine resurrection.

I personally believe these miracles could have possibly happened but were not divine miracles. It is possible that these acts were performed by people who had a more in depth understanding of the nature of the universe and were able to manipulate it using laws that we know nothing about. That being said, I am more inclined to believe that these miracles are legends created by the early church to increase their folk appeal or are metaphors to be interrupted as such. I would also apply the same reasoning to these other miracles but would ask you specify what you are referring to.

I cannot take anything that anyone said Jesus said to be truth. My historical training and reasoning prevents me from doing so. Some of the gospels were written as much as 200 years after the life of Joshua of Nazareth and as such there is bound to be some corruption, unintentional or otherwise. Additionally, the bible as a whole has been translated so many times by so many hands that who could accurately say what was in the first version.

And finally no. No deist would ever take the Bible or any other religious text as the word of the Creator because we believe that the creator gave every human reason and that is the tool we should use to understand the world and the universe.

Using the reason that G-d gave you and the rest of us, why do you suppose He would have created the universe and simultaneously chosen not to get involved? And do you believe G-d knows everything that has happened and will happen in the universe (is G-d omniscient and extra-temporal)?

Since you added a second question I’m quoting you again! I believe that God knows everything that has happened in the universe and all the things that could happen.

Except that you do profess to know enough about Him to know that He is a transpersonal Being and that you cannot understand Him. So you, at least, do not believe that concept is a failure.

Not as a whole no, but currently I like the understanding to be able to give a sufficient answer. Perhaps one day we will know enough to understand that question but I doubt we will be able to express in words as one might today.

Aside from a subconscious understanding that things are not as they should be, if everything was “perfect,” then we would know that it is perfect because our understanding would not be limited by imperfection.

Whose to say that our subconscious is not misunderstanding and saying things are not perfect even when they are because we lack the understanding for our subconscious to know if its perfect or not. And not necessarily. It is entirely possible that in this current moment our understanding of the Universe is the perfect amount that the Creator intended when the Universe was made? I do understand where you are coming from though, I promise!!! It is just rather unfortunate that any answer I could give you right now would lead to a circular argument

What scientific facts did they believe to be contradictory to the Catholic faith, and why did a scientific disagreement lead to such a substantial change in their beliefs about metaphysics?

There were many small things that proved contradictory to the catholic faith but one that people like to use the most is the debate that the Sun revolved around the Earth. It wasn’t so much that scientific discoveries contradicted the church but the churches complete refusal to admit it was wrong. The church needed to be seen as entity above reproach as much for the political power of the people that ran as its desire to remain true to its teachings. People were beginning to see that the church was comprised of just that, people. It lead many to question what the church was saying, some more than others, and it was these individuals that would go on to create many of the christian denominations common today. It was those that were more questioning of the church and its metaphysics that would go on to resurrect Deism. The scientific discoveries were more of the ice chip that started the snowball than the bang that caused the avalanche.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I cannot take anything that anyone said Jesus said to be truth. My historical training and reasoning prevents me from doing so. Some of the gospels were written as much as 200 years after the life of Joshua of Nazareth and as such there is bound to be some corruption, unintentional or otherwise.

What is your source for that? That is not a claim I’ve seen made even by the most liberal of historians. We have copies of the Gospel of John that go back as early as 110 A.D. (which means the original was written earlier).

 

[Per_Crucem]

Not as a whole no, but currently I like the understanding to be able to give a sufficient answer. Perhaps one day we will know enough to understand that question but I doubt we will be able to express in words as one might today.

Whose to say that our subconscious is not misunderstanding and saying things are not perfect even when they are because we lack the understanding for our subconscious to know if its perfect or not. And not necessarily. It is entirely possible that in this current moment our understanding of the Universe is the perfect amount that the Creator intended when the Universe was made? I do understand where you are coming from though, I promise!!! It is just rather unfortunate that any answer I could give you right now would lead to a circular argument.

Because then it wouldn’t be perfect. A would contradict B.

Yes, it would be circular. Hence why you should abandon it!

 

[SteveVH]

I believe I already have responded to all your questions?

Thank you, I just missed it.

In a word, yes. But that isn’t to say it does not have divine inspiration. Rather than requiring that the Creator reach down to man in order for us to understand the universe, Deists hold that we were created with the tools we need to understand and all we have to do is use them.

I’m not sure that the Creator reached down to teach us about the universe. He gave us a rational mind so that we might discover it. But he revealed Who created it and for whom he created it and he revealed our eternal destiny. These are things which we cannot know of our own knowledge. How do you deal with questions of sin and salvation?

Thanks for your time.

]

 

[Deist314]

Because then it wouldn’t be perfect. A would contradict B.

Yes, it would be circular. Hence why you should abandon it!

Hahahaha xD Once again I would like to say that the logic might only appear circular now because we lack the understanding to properly explain it.

 

[Deist314]

What do Deists do with events that demonstrate supernatural or preternatural affects on the world?

For example, the events in Fatima on October 13, 1917? This was a predicted event, so tens of thousands of people were present to see it. Do Deists believe that supernatural events occur like this not because God is choosing to interfere, but because there is some other source of power involved?

Most Deists believe that these events are completely explainable by a combination of science, luck, and mass hysteria. Deists do not typically believe that anything is supernatural. Some of them reject supernatural and preternatural events as complete fallacies invented by those claiming to see them. Not the most flattering image I know, but there are others who believe that these events are neither supernatural or preternatural but are merely what is to be expected. They believe the Universe is following the laws set down for it by the Creator and we simply don’t understand these laws. The basic slogan for deism is “I don’t know but lets find out.”

What is your source for that? That is not a claim I’ve seen made even by the most liberal of historians. We have copies of the Gospel of John that go back as early as 110 A.D. (which means the original was written earlier).

That was an error on part and I apologize. Upon reviewing some of my texts I found a need to correct myself. Most historians hypothesize that the gospels were written between circa 60 C.E. and 110 C.E. Once again I apologize for that error. And I am afraid that you are incorrect recording the earliest copies of the gospels. The earliest complete copies of the gospels we have are dated somewhere in the 4th Century with nothing more than snippets and quotations before then. A popular and widely accepted theory regarding this is presented in the book *Rethinking the Synoptic Problem * by David Black.

 

[Deist314]

I’m not sure that the Creator reached down to teach us about the universe. He gave us a rational mind so that we might discover it. But he revealed Who created it and for whom he created it and he revealed our eternal destiny. These are things which we cannot know of our own knowledge. How do you deal with questions of sin and salvation?
]

Deists believe that God revealed who created but that it is self evident in creation and that by applying our rational minds we could understand this. As for the rest of it, I’m just going to say we’re working on it lol

Typically we don’t. Not all deists believe that there is a soul or any sort of life after this one. I am of the personal belief that there is a spiritual game of cause and effect going on that mirrors that in the physical world. You would probably understand it best if I said I reject the idea of mortal sin and faith based salvation. Instead I view it as your physically actions and intents have spiritual as well as physical consequences. We will be “punished” for the actions we take with a malicious heart and with the intent to harm some part of what the Creator made while we will be “rewarded” for the actions we take based on love and with good intent.

 

[Mark1124]

Did God intend to bring about any particular state of affairs when He created the world? In other words, did He have a specific plan for how He wanted the universe to turn out?

When God created the universe, did He know exactly what it would look like at each future moment in time?

Is God a being who exists in time and has chosen not to act since the beginning of the universe, or is He an eternal being (such that all moments in time are simultaneously present to Him) who has chosen not to act except at one particular moment out of all of the moments that are present to Him? Or is there some third view I have not thought of which Deists accept?

Is God’s decision to influence exactly one moment of time a necessary truth or a contingent truth?

 

[SteveVH]

Deists believe that God revealed who created but that it is self evident in creation and that by applying our rational minds we could understand this. As for the rest of it, I’m just going to say we’re working on it lol

Typically we don’t. Not all deists believe that there is a soul or any sort of life after this one. I am of the personal belief that there is a spiritual game of cause and effect going on that mirrors that in the physical world. You would probably understand it best if I said I reject the idea of mortal sin and faith based salvation. Instead I view it as your physically actions and intents have spiritual as well as physical consequences. We will be “punished” for the actions we take with a malicious heart and with the intent to harm some part of what the Creator made while we will be “rewarded” for the actions we take based on love and with good intent.

Interesting. Do you believe our actions have eternal consequences? In other words, how do you believe we will be rewarded and how do you believe we will be punished?

 

[Prodigirl]

Meet Tori Amos. She’s an Angel from a realm up above the Earth. She’s a guiding light, here on Earth. Study her lyrics, she sings a lot about satan, lucifer and some other things.

White Telephone to God

Tori Amos was born at the Old Catawba Hospital in Newton, North Carolina, in case anyone is wondering about this little sidebar.

 

[SteveVH]

Tori Amos was born at the Old Catawba Hospital in Newton, North Carolina, in case anyone is wondering about this little sidebar.

I really have missed something. Why in the world are we talking about Tori Amos at all, much less where she was born?

 

[gmx2014]

Then I would politely ask you to stop spamming this thread :3 I have created this for people that have questions about my faith that they haven’t been able to find suitable answers for!

/

Nobody is spamming. You’re talking about my realm.

You present yourself as a source of information or knowledge, without realizing that you’re being handed what you don’t know, on a proverbial silver platter. Humble yourself, your pride is showing.

 

[gmx2014]

Thank you, I just missed it.

Again, thank you. It is always nice to know where someone sits as we consider where they stand.

]

That’s not my quote, Steve.

 

[SteveVH]

Nobody is spamming. You’re talking about my realm.

You present yourself as a source of information or knowledge, without realizing that you’re being handed what you don’t know, on a proverbial silver platter. Humble yourself, your pride is showing.

Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread. I don’t think anyone has a clue what you are even trying to convey as your comments are nonsensical. I agree with Deist. Either get on track with what is being discussed or start your own thread.

 

[SteveVH]

That’s not my quote, Steve.

My bad. I was responding to Deist.

But while I am here, would you mind responding to my Post No. 42?

Actually, never mind. I don’t want to facilitate derailing this thread.

 

[Per_Crucem]

That was an error on part and I apologize. Upon reviewing some of my texts I found a need to correct myself. Most historians hypothesize that the gospels were written between circa 60 C.E. and 110 C.E. Once again I apologize for that error. And I am afraid that you are incorrect recording the earliest copies of the gospels. The earliest complete copies of the gospels we have are dated somewhere in the 4th Century with nothing more than snippets and quotations before then. A popular and widely accepted theory regarding this is presented in the book *Rethinking the Synoptic Problem * by David Black.

usefulcharts.com/religion/oldest-bible-manuscripts.html

 

[gmx2014]

Spoken by who?

Yes, of course, before creation there was nothingness, except for God. Is that suppose to be some new revelation?

You speak “absolute truth”? And from whom did you receive this authority?

And, if I may ask, why do you state your religion as “Catholic”?

I was born to two Catholic families … one devout, the other obligatory. I don’t “receive authority”. I exist, and I speak. Amazing phenomenon.

Technically, in the state of pre-existence, there is no god (as if god were an individual). There is consciousness (consciousness is something human beings do not fully understand) and there are thoughts. The mind has faculties (imagination is not logic, reason is not memory, psyche is not consciousness). There is no person named god who knowingly, intentionally created atoms, molecules, lightning, brains. There’s just a container, that contains everything. The trigger that causes me to explode, is about my daughter. You know, god and its creation. parent and child.

Want to know what it’s like to talk to strangers about absolute truth and reality? Waste of life. Waste of effort. Waste of time.

We live from eternity to eternity. There is an instance when the universe is all light (no darkness). We are very far away from that Perfection. So tragic. Sigh…

 

[in_servitude]

Most Deists believe that these events are completely explainable by a combination of science, luck, and mass hysteria. Deists do not typically believe that anything is supernatural. Some of them reject supernatural and preternatural events as complete fallacies invented by those claiming to see them. Not the most flattering image I know, but there are others who believe that these events are neither supernatural or preternatural but are merely what is to be expected. They believe the Universe is following the laws set down for it by the Creator and we simply don’t understand these laws. The basic slogan for deism is “I don’t know but lets find out.”

Hmm… If what you say is correct, then it appears that Deists know very little about the Fatima event.

But, if Deists have in fact investigated the Fatima event, there must be some papers or links to information that would “scientifically explain” the event.

1. The truth is that the events in Fatima defy all scientific explanations (how does a large field/region soaked by rain for several days dry out in 15 minutes? Simple math shows that to be very unscientific (conservation of energy).
2. Mass hysteria? Not so much - the event was across 600 square miles. People who had no idea that an event was predicted - and also were alone at the time - could not be affected by mass hysteria. (Why doesn’t mass hysteria happen more often - especially at rock concerts?)
3. Luck? 70,000 people looking at the sun for 15 minutes? They all somehow “lucked out” that their eyes were not permanently damaged?

For me, when I see people dismissing such large, overt, undeniable events like Fatima, I have to concluded that the whole basis for the beliefs of Deists to be remarkable thin.