Hello, I'm a new Protestant convert

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CampionTheChampion

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I’m new to this forum. My name is Joe, and since the spring I’ve been in the process of joining the Church. I come from a devoted nondenominational family and am struggling with a few things in the Catholic Church.

First, I cannot get myself to actually pray to any saints. I’ve heard nearly all the intellectual arguments for and against this practice and find myself agreeing with Catholics on this point. Unfortunately, I cannot get myself to feel comfortable with the practice. I think the thing which bothers me the most is the sheer lack of evidence that pre-Nicene Christians prayed to saints. Any guidance on this would help my personal prayer life greatly. I would love to pray the Rosary for real (rather than skipping all the Mary parts).

Second, I’m having trouble understanding where I fit into Catholicism. There seems to be a small civil war brewing between the traditionalists and more mainstream Catholics. I, unfortunately, met many SSPX Catholics (and a few sedevacantists D:) at the beginning of my journey and still have a lot of doubts with the mainstream view because of their influence. Don’t worry, I’ve since found a great non-SSPX church (they do the new mass quite well). I might ask this question in other sections on the forum, but is there anyone else who has been confused by this passive-aggressive “civil war”? What has given you more assurance? I know this is hardly a crisis when compared to other times (i.e. Western Schism). I’ll let it at that.

I really enjoy reading the forum already! You guys are the bomb.
 
Praying to the saints is not obligated by the Church. It’s an amazing and powerful devotion, but the choice to use it is yours. And I would say that the civil war between trads and contemporary people is not as bad as it seems to be… Everyone just needs to recognize that both the EF and the NO are good and valid masses and it doesn’t Matter which you like most.
 
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CampionTheChampion said:
First, I cannot get myself to actually pray to any saints.
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Fine, don’t pray TO them. Pray to Jesus and ask St. Whoever to please pray to Jesus along with you. That’s okay, right?

It’'s interesting that you are using a saint’s name in your online handle.

I’m not too concerned with whatever bickering is going on between SSPX and Rome. I hope SSPX gets into full communion with Rome soon so we can stop worrying about it.
 
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Welcome Joe. We’re pretty much assured that we will have questions about the Faith, that’s a good thing because to have questions means we are seeking truth. Seeking truth and understanding truth is what will lead us in this state of journeying.

Let’s get just a technicality cleared up. When we say “pray”, there are two main definitions, one is “to ask”, such as “pray tell” or “prithy me”. There is also prayer as worship. Leading to worship, there are three distinctions when we talk about prayer and worship together.

Dulia - honor and reverence bestowed upon those other human beings that have lived on earth, followed God’s will and have made it into heaven. To these humans, we offer prayers in the “to ask” sense as I would ask you, Joe, “Hey, my daughter has this tonsil surgery tomorrow, would you say a prayer for my daughter?” We know from St. Paul that the prayers of a righteous man avails much, how much more righteous can a human being get than being in heaven seeing the face of God?

Hyper-Dulia - honor and reverence reserved for the mother of God. A human, just like the rest of us, though selected by God, she followed God’s will with her own free will. Same thing, we can ask Mary of things just as we would ask our own mom or aunt to help us out … she will always lead us to her Son.

Latria - worship in prayer, the only one reserved for the Lord of Hosts, Hosana in the highest, the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Reserved and respected, confined in the 1st commandment of the 10 in the mosaic law and so important that Jesus re-iterated as the 1st commandment of the two that he left, love the lord your god with all your heart, mind, and soul (paraphrased from memory).

Where you fit? Wherever you are is where you fit as a child of God, brother to every other baptized christian in the galaxy. No worries on the Society of St. Pius the 10th (SSPX), they are not in schism, though not full union, the popes have been working on this one, we can only pray for unity.

Follow your intellect and reason to seek the truth. Use your feelings as a gauge, or indicator, but is not a reliable source of truth. If I may end with a bit of personal advice, there is one thing that God will grant in every prayer, with abundance, without reserve nor regard, you will be provided without question, guaranteed instant delivery, no expiration … James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him.

Ask Him every day, lol
 
CampionTheChampion said:
I think the thing which bothers me the most is the sheer lack of evidence that pre-Nicene Christians prayed to saints. Any guidance on this would help my personal prayer life greatly. I would love to pray the Rosary for real (rather than skipping all the Mary parts).
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Welcome to CAF!

This is an English translation of the oldest Prayer (Hymn) to Mary (Theotokos) which dates from around 250 AD (pre-Nicene):

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.


Other resources that might be helpful:

Quotes from Church Fathers
http://www.churchfathers.org/category/mary-and-the-saints/the-intercession-of-the-saints/

Prayers to Saints in the Pre-Nicene Era


Jimmy Akin - Praying to the Saints
http://jimmyakin.com/praying-to-the-saints
 
TigerLily-1 said:
This is an English translation of the oldest Prayer (Hymn) to Mary (Theotokos) which dates from around 250 AD (pre-Nicene):

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.
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TigerLily-1, yes this is the kind of pre-Nicene prayer I’ve been hoping to find. I think I’ve actually read this one specifically before. But my problem is that there does not seem to be many of them. To my Protestant eyes, this is simply evidence that the birth pangs of the “whore” were becoming visible (yes, this is how many Protestants reasons away early-Catholic ideas).

I’ve been considering taking a different approach. Rather than trying to prove early Christians prayed to Mary, we could instead try to prove that Christians did not object to the practice until later times? Maybe if such an argument was formulated well it could shock Protestants better. Much like how that “all Christians considered contraception immoral until 1930” line tends to shock them. Something like “no Christian objected to the practice until x”? Maybe show some reformers praying to saints early on as a follow-up.

Thank you all for the quick responses.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
First, I cannot get myself to actually pray to any saints
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Welcome home!

I think it is very commendable and praiseworthy of you not only admitting what you are struggling with, but that you are also publicly seeking some guidance. It appears that your heart is in the right place, open to the Holy Spirit leading you on your journey.

I do not want to presume too much in your disposition in how you feel and view the Communion of Saints, but as a recent convert (technically a revert) I will try to help.

As a Protestant for many years of my life I would view any Saint and/or Christian not yet beatified, separate from Jesus Christ; e.g. I pray to God, not to Mary (or any other Saint). I believe this disposition lied in how I viewed, and perhaps how you might still understand, the Mystical Body of Christ. I would separate, not distinguish, but actually separate Jesus Christ and His Church (namely, the Saints and other Christians) into this either/or dichotomy: again, I would pray to Jesus Christ, not to Saint Anne, for example.

What I urge you to open your heart and mind to understand, is that Jesus Christ (the Head) is the Church (the Body) inasmuch as We are one, just as the Son and the Father are one. In other words, the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and especially the Church Triumphant are so radically and intimately attached to and in communion with Jesus Christ, that when we petition for a Saint to intercede and pray for us, it is as if we are asking Jesus Christ to do so - because, any intercessory power that a Christian has and implements, particularly a Saint of the Church Triumphant, is only possible through communion, with, by, and in the Head (Jesus Christ) bestowing that power on His Church.

Any type of intercession (prayer) that occurs from a Saint, is only done on behalf of Jesus Christ. Just as you, being incorporated into the Body of Christ through Baptism and sealed through Confirmation, can pray (intercede) for me; how much more can a Saint, one who not only has been incorporated into the Body of Christ through their Baptism and Confirmation but has finished the race, proved their fidelity, and endured the final test and have become perfectly glorified (in Christ) in the Beatific Vision, pray for us?

I hope this helps.
 
AugustTherese said:
Jesus Christ (the Head) is the Church (the Body) inasmuch as We are one, just as the Son and the Father are one. In other words, the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and especially the Church Triumphant are so radically and intimately attached to and in communion with Jesus Christ, that when we petition for a Saint to intercede and pray for us, it is as if we are asking Jesus Christ to do so - because, any intercessory power that a Christian has and implements, particularly a Saint of the Church Triumphant, is only possible through communion, with, by, and in the Head (Jesus Christ) bestowing that power on His Church.
I hope this helps.
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I haven’t heard it put that way before. Any suggestions where I should look to have this explained further?
 
I too was greatly influenced by SSPX and sedevacantists when I first converted. Though I no longer believe in that sort of stuff, I still identify with the more traditional aspect of Catholicism. I feel you should stay in the middle, or stay wherever you stand currently. Its okay to not choose either side.
 
@CapitalistCatholic that is my current plan. I’ll probably stay at this OF church with decently traditional priests. My only complaint with them is their use of extraordinary ministers of holy communion when the mass attendance is high. I’d rather just have the priests distribute even if it takes longer. Other than that, they do a wonderful mass and it is highly reverent from what I can tell.

The only SSPX and sedevacantist sentiment I can’t shake is all this distrust in the Church they gave me. It doesn’t help that my Protestant side used to thrive on distrust in the RCC. Specifically, though, many of these people would have me doubt that the 3rd “secret” of Fatima was actually released in its entirety. That did a number on me because I thought I couldn’t trust what JP, Benedict or Francis said. I’m still suspect on this bit.
 
This is a wonderful article. I’ve learned much about Lefebvre from the SSPXers, so it is great hearing this man’s perspective of Lefebvre’s decision against Rome. Thank you for sharing!
 
I feel you. I do have my doubts when coming the Fatima Secret, but since there is no evidence of it being lied about, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I’ve been given much distrust in Vatican 2 as well. Though they are not my favourite, I don’t believe they are Satan incarnate anymore. I don’t really trust Francis and Benedict either. Like, “youth unemployment”, really?
 
The problem I’ve found is that if the Vatican did hide something, we could never know for sure what it was without becoming a conspiratorial nut. Obviously, the NO mass is valid (unless the sedes are right). So the way I’ve come to see it is that if something was hidden from us, we can still live good Catholic lives in the “modern” churches and still follow what Our Lady prescribed at Fatima, i.e. pray the Rosary. As you can see, this is why I really want to become comfortable with praying to saints because I would like to one day have a devotion to Mary.
 
CampionTheChampion said:
. Any suggestions where I should look to have this explained further?
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947: “Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others. . . . We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head. . . . Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments.” “As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund.”

956: The intercession of the saints. “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.”

669: "As Lord, Christ is also head of the Church, which is his Body. Taken up to heaven and glorified after he had thus fully accomplished his mission, Christ dwells on earth in his Church. The redemption is the source of the authority that Christ, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, exercises over the Church. “The kingdom of Christ [is] already present in mystery”, “on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom”.

"This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? “The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church.” And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself “bride.”

All taken from the CCC. 🙂
 
There are a number of graffiti in the Roman catacombs that petition the saints Peter and Paul to “pray for us” or “remember us”. The exact age of the graffiti is not precisely known, but they are ancient and might be pre-Nicene.

I understand your reluctance to pray to saints, I feel slightly uncomfortable also. But I must remember the incredible number of miracles that have been granted after the recipient prayed to a saint! Judging by that alone, it is obvious that the saints in heaven do indeed hear our petitions and want to help us as God allows.
 
Adult convert here.

This is how I broke it down.

I am imperfect. I love and pray for my family and my friends and our leaders and strangers and for the entire human race, and I do that every day.

I’d bet you do the same!

So, you and I, imperfect Christians that we are, we love others and we pray for any one who asks for it and for many people who do not even ask.

If I were to die tonight, and if I died in friendship with God, I’d go to heaven, right … straight there or after a purgation, that is a different discussion… we agree that I’d end up in heaven.

Now, nothing imperfect can enter heaven, right? So, when I get to heaven, I will be perfect! That means that I will still love all of my family and friends and even strangers who are still on this earth, right?

If I love all of these people, better than I love them now because of the perfection thing, and if I am standing before the Throne of Almighty God, does it not make sense that I would ask God to bless and comfort and guide and protect and heal my family and friends on earth?

I find it interesting that the most stalwart Protestant, when someone faces the death of a loved one, especially the hard deaths like a child who loses a parent or the parent who loses a child, they will comfort the grieving by saying “you know that she is now in heaven watching over you!” yet, they cannot ask St Paul to pray for them.

In the end, it is all about loving each other.

By the way, please, pray for me!
 
CampionTheChampion said:
As you can see, this is why I really want to become comfortable with praying to saints because I would like to one day have a devotion to Mary.
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Just ask Jesus humbly in Jesus’ name to make you comfortable with it. Might take a little time but I’m sure you can get there.

Also if your Church has any rosary group, maybe go and sit through as much of the Rosary as you can handle without feeling uncomfortable. You don’t have to pray it yourself, just sit there. Maybe join in on the Our Fathers. If you have to leave after a decade, do so. But just being around it will help you get comfortable with it.
 
Campion,

I’ll try to muddle through an answer but I’m not an apologist or historian and there’s more I don’t know than do know. Others have given you good explanations in this thread,

You need to first understand what the Mystical Body of Christ is and what we mean by the Church. The Saints don’t make much sense without understanding that doctrine. I was wondering how to explain this and then I read @AugustTherese’s excellent explanation. It’s very important. Once you understand the Mystical Body of Christ, you’ll start to understand the Communion of Saints and understand how Catholics see Mary, the Angels and the Saints.

The earliest recognized saints would have been the Martyrs who were revered and remembered from the earliest days of the Church. St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Stephen, St. James, St. Ignatius, Polycarp, etc. were all Martyrs that early Christians remembered from the first days. They talked about them, wrote about them, built shrines in their honor and collected their relics. Those Martyrs are still revered today as Saints.

The early Church was united but broke into Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and the other Churches of the East (some in union with Rome) and the Western Church - Latin Rite. You will find Saints venerated in all of the surviving ancient churches, so it’s not an invention of Rome. Devotional practices may be different though.

As far as recorded early prayers, there may not be many pre-Nicene prayers that survived from the early Church where we have either original or contemporary manuscripts from that era. Ancient prayers may have survived in the ancient Liturgies of the Churches, both East and West, and it may not be possible to prove how old they are.

If you’re converting to Catholicism, you will have to accept the Church’s teachings about Mary and the Saints because we “pray to” Mary, the Angels and the Saints in the Mass (the Confiteor and the Eucharistic Prayers).

I believe your priority should be YOU and what you need to understand and believe. When you understand and you’re sure, you’ll be able to explain it non-Catholic Christians in ways that they can “hear” and understand.

God Bless!
 
TheLittleLady said:
By the way, please, pray for me!
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Sure thing little lady!
Tis_Bearself said:
Also if your Church has any rosary group, maybe go and sit through as much of the Rosary as you can handle without feeling uncomfortable.
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Wonderful idea. I hadn’t thought of that. I remember they are doing a Rosary crusade at the moment now that I think about it.
TigerLily-1 said:
I believe your priority should be YOU and what you need to understand and believe. When you understand and you’re sure, you’ll be able to explain it non-Catholic Christians in ways that they can “hear” and understand.
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Yes, it is very important I get my beliefs straight first. Ironically, these are already lined up with the RCC–even on the communion of saints! I’m just very uncomfortable with it. To be quite honest, I’ve become more uncomfortable after talking to more Protestants recently. A friend recently said to my face that they think I’m going to hell for all of this O.o Several others have already suggested this but were not as blunt. Worst, one Calvinist suggested I’m predestined to hell.
 
Welcome home! To be sure you’re in an intellectual and spiritual whirlwind, but stick around here (I’ve been a loooooong time lurker) and keep educating yourself with solid Catholic materials and you’ll soon find your groove in this beautiful and whole Church that is “the soul of the world”.

Regarding Marian devotion, one of the most devout, faithful and virtuous men I know is a convert who came into the Church 4 years ago. He teaches RCIA, is a model Catholic father and husband and a true inspiration to me. He still has a hard time with the Rosary and certain language used for Our Blessed Mother. So give it time, let that grace keep working at you!
 
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