Hello, I'm an atheist

[MrWhy]

tomaskovarik:

I also found the Pascal’s wager argument morally weak. It certainly would not qualify as a rational search for truth. Now, you are also correct about the correlation between the level of education and faith. My experience is even more detailed. Here is what I found among my colleagues, listing from the highest frequency of faith to the lowest

a) Mathematicians (highest faith occurrence, Christianity isdominant)
b) Physicists (more Pantheistic inclination)
c) Chemists (usually just nominal believers or agnostics)
d) Biologists (almost typically atheists or agnostics at best
e) Social Scientists (inevitably atheists).

So, it all breaks down “by profession”. I see it as a curve, in the beginning you are quite religious and have rather infantile ideas about God, then, as you mature and get an education, the infantile idea is abandoned but substitute is not found, which results in period of indifference or agnosticism or even atheism. Then, as you climb up the intellectual ladder, you have to realize at some point, that there is a manifestation of some kind of Higher Order in the universe and you try to seek a new definition of that which is commonly referred to as God.
Thats my take on stuff
Tomas

Such a breakdown is not surprising, but not as meaningful as the overall numbers. The stats I found usually have the theists among scientist at less than 50%. Whatever the exact %age, it is much less than average for any population in any country. The publication “Nature” and some stats on members of the National Academy of Science are sources, some time spent searching could turn up more. I think the relationship between religious belief and education level is significant. Much more so than the simple number or percentage of religious people from the total population.

 

[Catholico]

itsjustdave1988:

In my view, we are only given freewill to choose to do as God wills. This is the standard of “right behavior.” It is immoral to do otherwise. When atheists speak of “moral behavior” they clearly hold to a different definition than Catholics. If being moral means conforming to a standard of right behavior, then the very word presumes “right behavior” is an already agreed upon first premise. If “right behavior” is subjective, than so is morality, which means in the final analysis that there is no good and evil. Many of my atheists friends don’t seem to understand the consequences of the “subjective morality” to which they subscribe.

Moral behavior has both a subjective and objective component for both atheists and Catholics. Catholics have to find what they think in their hearts. They must also reach a moral consensus with other Catholics. The ten commandments don’t cover everything so Catholics need more. So they’ve got the Pope and College of Cardinals to make pronouncements on this and that. Unfortunately this doesn’t bring consensus to the Catholic public. Many Catholics practice birth control, abortion, divorce etc… People still need to find values in the world around them whether they are atheists or Catholics. Atheists look in their hearts for what they think is right and they also seek the agreement of those around them. Sometimes they even agree with Catholics. There is great diversity in how we value things. Sometimes we must look to people around us who have better judgement than us. Sometimes we look to historical precedents of our communities. We somehow have managed to muddle our way through things even though the many gods that people claim they listen to have not pronounced the last word on what we ought to do.

Catholico

 

[tomaskovarik]

MrWhy:

Such a breakdown is not surprising, but not as meaningful as the overall numbers. The stats I found usually have the theists among scientist at less than 50%. Whatever the exact %age, it is much less than average for any population in any country. The publication “Nature” and some stats on members of the National Academy of Science are sources, some time spent searching could turn up more. I think the relationship between religious belief and education level is significant. Much more so than the simple number or percentage of religious people from the total population.

OK, now, what do you conclude from your statistics? Do you think it is hard for an educated individual to believe in God? Jesus said that he hid these things from wise man and reveal them to simple man (paraphrase), that could be almost a prediction for the current state of things. More educated people are less gullible and less willing to accept unproven things. I myself do not see much reason to believe in God, were it not for God’s constant revelation in my own life.
So, dont let the numbers dicourage you. There is a book “How to lie with statistics” by the way, I recommend that

 

[tomaskovarik]

Catholico:

Moral behavior has both a subjective and objective component for both atheists and Catholics. Catholics have to find what they think in their hearts. They must also reach a moral consensus with other Catholics. The ten commandments don’t cover everything so Catholics need more. So they’ve got the Pope and College of Cardinals to make pronouncements on this and that. Unfortunately this doesn’t bring consensus to the Catholic public. Many Catholics practice birth control, abortion, divorce etc… People still need to find values in the world around them whether they are atheists or Catholics. Atheists look in their hearts for what they think is right and they also seek the agreement of those around them. Sometimes they even agree with Catholics. There is great diversity in how we value things. Sometimes we must look to people

Catholico

Good point!
When I sit alone on my chair and try to figure out something (about God, say), I usually don’t get too far. We need people around, we need “experts” to give us answers. If I want to learn about mathematics, I wouln’t go to a butcher, I would ask a professional mathematician. The same about religion. If I need to know about God, I should go and ask the experts, the theologians.
Now, how do we recognize the experts in religion? There are many who would claim to be experts. That was the question I was asking as I was leaving the Jehova’s Witnesses camp…and then I realized that I had to seek the truth from somebody most authentic, which is the Catholic Church. Of course, after dismissing non-christian religions.
Tomas

 

[Catholico]

tomaskovarik:

Good point!
Now, how do we recognize the experts in religion? There are many who would claim to be experts. That was the question I was asking as I was leaving the Jehova’s Witnesses camp…and then I realized that I had to seek the truth from somebody most authentic, which is the Catholic Church. Of course, after dismissing non-christian religions.
Tomas

Right, but there are theologians even within the Catholic community who disagree with each other. Hans Kung is a case in point. He reflects the protest within the Catholic community against so many of the Church’s controversial positions including infallibility itself. After you find the right group you may sometimes need to find smaller divisions even within that group.

Catholics don’t agree with the major tenets that are stressed by the Church today. A very large percentage of Catholics are waiting patiently for their leaders and theologians to change their positions. I don’t think they should be holding their breath.

Catholico

 

[Jlcastagna]

Your right Catholico they should not hold their breath, they should just continue to be obediant and let the Holy Spirit guide the Church.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[Catholico]

Jlcastagna:

Your right Catholico they should not hold their breath, they should just continue to be obediant and let the Holy Spirit guide the Church.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

Pardon me but they are not obedient! Catholics have formed a subgroup within the Church. They believe that it is ok to have premarital sex, to engage in same sex activities, to get a divorce, to use birth control, to use illegal drugs, some believe in torturing people suspected of terrorism, and more than a few Catholics will get an abortion for unwanted pregnancies. In other words, they don’t believe the Pope is infallible. But they have established a second tier of consensus within the Church.

I hope these are not some of the same people who tell atheists that we have no standard of behavior without God and the Pope! That would be rich. They are, however, showing that our morals are a blend of personal feelings and group agreements. They demonstrate that morals are an evolutionary process within a group.

Infallibility is a nice pipe dream but a lot of Catholics don’t really believe it because they are saying they don’t with their actions.

Catholico

 

[ThisOne]

Pascal’s Wager is not about faking it.

It’s about (1) taking a serious look at the likelihood that, since you are not omniscient, you may indeed be wrong to conclude that God does not exist, and (2) then, carefully and fairly, searching out whether you can use the tools that are provided to you in the world to make a more sober decision than that which is derived by demanding that the Creator of the Universe do your bidding and dance to your tune.

A start can be made by realizing that reason is not the only way of knowing and that a combination of reason and the other ways of knowing might tell you something you don’t already know.

 

[Jlcastagna]

Catholico,
I didn’t say they would be obedient I said they should be obedient and even though they are being dissident in their belief at present we have hope that their journey will draw them into total compliance with God’s desires. I know that I have questioned teachings of the Church many times, but was ultimately drawn to the truth of the Churches belief. Do these sub-cultures exist within the Catholic Church, Yes, But are they the ones with the Truth or is the Church guided by the Holy Spirit through the successor of Peter and the Magisterium. I Know you already know my answer and I know yours. As far as that pipe dream so far its worked out and hasn’t sprung enough leaks to drowned the Catholic Church and never will.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC