Hello

[aileron]

It’s called choice. I choose to believe. -And I’m pretty sure Hindus get the same choice.

I see. In other words, multiple groups jump to their own unreasonable conclusions founded on reciprocal prejudices - that way it’s fair.

Now that we have that nasty little tit for tat out of the way.

No, we don’t. As far as being nasty, why is that?

Care to take a stab at my challenge?

Very well…

Just tell me, is there anywhere in nature that something I can detect with my senses produces that which I cannot?

Just one?

A baby monitor, specifically the one placed in the baby’s room.

 

[antonabe]

Having gone through the numerous posts it is evident that we have amongst us some unfortunate people who do not blieve in a God.Very convincing arguements have been posted but it appears that we are knocking our heads against the Wall,so to speak as they do not have the faith to believe.Let us all now be charitable and pray for these unfortunate people so that God will let the Holy Spirit dawn on them and they be guided so that they will see the light.Historically there have been many Heretics,Atheists,Asnostics who have eventually seen the light and became good Christains.May God bless the Atheist and Agnostics and may he soften the hardness of their hearts so that in course of time they roo will join us in everlasting glory.

 

[elts1956]

Very well. I am an atheist because I do not believe in a higher being. I do not know how the earth got here, and frankly, I don’t think we are ever going to know for sure. Some very convincing theorys out there though. I do not believe in the christian god because I find it rather disturbing. The bible, I mean. The Church has done many bad things over the years. I am an atheist because I am agnostic. There is no proof to back up any god out there. I do not think that atheism is bad to the world in any way.

My first question to you would be: Can you prove there isn’t a God, a Higher Power? How do you explain the order in the Universe?

 

[Lokstir]

My first question to you would be: Can you prove there isn’t a God, a Higher Power? How do you explain the order in the Universe?

Obviously she can’t disprove the existence of a god or higher power. If a mere 12 year old (no offense meant Anna) was, I’m fairly certain some scientist would have by now. Luckily for her though, the burden of proof is not on her. YOU Catholics feel that it is God’s will to spread his word and convert the unbelievers. I can’t even count how many times people have tried to convert me. So, it is up to YOU (not you specifically, but as a whole religion) to prove that you’re bible is in fact true and not just a big fantasy novel. If you can’t, then LEAVE US ALONE. We are absolutely sick of you people quoting bible verses at us (we don’t believe a god made it) or telling us that Jesus loves us even though we fail to acknowledge him (a lot of us don’t even think he was a real person, let alone a god) and we absolutely LOATHE being told we can’t be truly happy without accepting him.

This rage is because one of you said a 12 year old was “The Devil’s Incarnate.” and being told I am incapable of feeling love or having morality. I hope you realize just how horrible and ignorant you all are for saying that and not condemning the one who did.

 

[AtheistEnvoy]

Okay, one more time. You can save yourself now or go down with the ship.

It wouldn’t matter if He showed up at your door for coffee, you’d still deny HIM. Agnostics can claim ignorance. Atheists cannot. YOU DO NOT BELIEVE.

If God does show up for coffee, will you deny Him? If you say no, then you are agnostic. Folks like yourself who are scared of committing 100% are the ones that created this so-called agnostic atheism. No such thing.

I don’t know what kind of game you’re playing with your conscience, but come to a realization, you don’t have hope if you keep claiming to be atheist.

Honestly i am stupified, yes stupified, at how you are unable to grasp the term Agnostic Atheist. It is not something made up, as it is a legitimate stance, one that has been explained dozens of times in this thread. Just because you don’t like the fact that the stance is what the majority of atheists hold does not make it invalid.

I don’t like the fact you believe in the bible with no proof, that doesn’t mean being a christian is impossible. I never said that if a deity appeared and was sufficient in revealing himself I would still not believe in him, that would just be plain stupid of me. Until that happens however I don’t believe a deity exists.

**Now onto your beloved love argument which I debunked dozens of pages ago with a simple metaphor that you were also unable to grasp. Just because something has yet to be proven by science does not automatically provide sufficient evidence to attribute it to god. If this were the case then by all rights Ra the sun god would be proven in ancient times as we were unable to explain why the sun rises and sets. Zeus would be proven in that thunder and lightning occur and man was unable to explain it’s origins.

Your current argument boils down to, love can’t be explained with science THUS GOD, MY GOD, THE GOD, IS THE ANSWER AND YOU CAN’T PROVE OTHERWISE SO I AM RIGHT.**

Please for the love of all that is holy please tell me you can grasp just how dumb your argument really is. Pun very much intended.

 

[elts1956]

I am very happy. I love my friends and family and don’t know what I would do without them. I am very content with my life right now. I guess my friends are kinda like my god. But no, I don’t agree with you, your god has no control over the people I love. He isn’t why I love them, in fact most of my friends are atheists(or at least agnostic). And as for your second (in bold) comment, I don’t really know how to respond. I do not believe in god, if he gives me the ability to doubt and seek the truth, well I doubt god and the truth I have found is that he does not exist.

I “think” what Theresa meant by God being “present” in your friends is not a matter of His control, but of His sharing his spirituality with them. We all, believers in God, or not, are both spiritual and physical. Spirituality is more than religion. It is looking at a sunset and believing there is nothing more beautiful to see. It is hearing a melody, or symphony and believing there is nothing more beautiful to hear. It is reading a line of poetry, or a paragraph in a book and being shaken so spiritually, you will carry that thought and feeling with you the rest of your life.

Another of my questions to you, if you acknowledge we are spirtual beings in a physical body, would be: Why are we created as both spiritual and physical beings if the spiritual is not to play a great part in what we are, in what we strive to be? Where did this spirituality come from? Can a physical being create spirituality? Or would it take a spiritual being who knows and understands what it is to be spiritual, to create it?

 

[ParkerD]

Oops, I meant that not all animals have the same love capacity (worm to a monkey) A worm probably doesn’t posses much love, while a monkey is, i say this again, very sociable.
How do you know they have a limited understanding of love?
Not as good as some I have seen but
youtube.com/watch?v=TjtrdpSwEUY
Its only a minute long, please watch.

Annabea,
I suppose one can say that animals like monkeys express an emotion that one could classify as “love,” though I don’t do that since I think love expresses devotion and making choices that elevate someone else and are selfless.

I would say that your life will be “fine” without finding God, but if you want more than “fine” (which is going to be your choice always) then there are spiritual truths that will not meet objective criteria but that make life so much more than “fine”. They make life (if chosen without coercion) richly abundant regardless of status or wealth, and spiritually joyful regardless of life’s trials and disappointments.

 

[ParkerD]

I “think” what Theresa meant by God being “present” in your friends is not a matter of His control, but of His sharing his spirituality with them. We all, believers in God, or not, are both spiritual and physical. Spirituality is more than religion. It is looking at a sunset and believing there is nothing more beautiful to see. It is hearing a melody, or symphony and believing there is nothing more beautiful to hear. It is reading a line of poetry, or a paragraph in a book and being shaken so spiritually, you will carry that thought and feeling with you the rest of your life.

Another of my questions to you, if you acknowledge we are spirtual beings in a physical body, would be: Why are we created as both spiritual and physical beings if the spiritual is not to play a great part in what we are, in what we strive to be? Where did this spirituality come from? Can a physical being create spirituality? Or would it take a spiritual being who knows and understands what it is to be spiritual, to create it?

Elts1956,
Thank you for sharing this wonderful post. I thought it made a great deal of sense. Thanks.

 

[elts1956]

I am very happy. I love my friends and family and don’t know what I would do without them. I am very content with my life right now. I guess my friends are kinda like my god. But no, I don’t agree with you, your god has no control over the people I love. He isn’t why I love them, in fact most of my friends are atheists(or at least agnostic). And as for your second (in bold) comment, I don’t really know how to respond. I do not believe in god, if he gives me the ability to doubt and seek the truth, well I doubt god and the truth I have found is that he does not exist.

Excellent!!! It’s quite refreshing to find a respectable young person who has a mind of their own. Having faith in something of which there is absolutely no evidence of its existence is irrational and borders on the delusional.

I suggest you read the works of Richard Dawkins and there is a particularly excellent video series of his entitled The Root of All Evil? of which you can view episode one here:

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9002284641446868316

Dawkins??? :bigyikes:

 

[GraceDK]

I have been an atheist all of my life and was lucky enough never to have been baptized. I still have empathy, morality, love, and care for other people. And I may not be 100% that there is no higher power but I am 100% certain that there is no Yahweh/Jesus whatever you want to call him. And it is ignorant statements like this that have turned me into an antitheist. You have deeply offended me jam and josie to say that I am incapable of love and morality.

Of course you are capable of love and morality. You are a human being. The image of God is in you. You must accept that we as Christians don’t believe in relativism. We believe in objective truth, objective right and wrong… Relativism is a stance that says that morality changes over time, according to culture etc.
When you say you are 100 percent sure there is no Jesus or Yahve, you are the one who is being arrogant and more than that, you are being unscientific. You go far beyond what your human capacity allows you to.

For instance we have biological science that threatens to do immoral things. How do you define what is moral?.. what do you say faced with stemcell research, abortion, torture etc…
We say that any moral argument begins and ends with God. A God who is absolute justice and absolute Love. Try to ponder that. I would also suggest, if you are mature for it, to read the book “Mere Christianity”. C.S. Lewis used to be an atheist like you but precisely because of pondering morality he came to the conclusion that God exists.

What precisely do you mean by “antitheist”? You cannot be against a god you do not believe exists. So does this mean that you are against all religion or against religious people?

What is it about Jesus Christ that you dont like? That He gave His life for you on the cross, so that you have to admit you have sinned? Is it that His love and holiness is something you can’t fathom? Would it be a burden to say there is an absolute truth that you have to adapt yourself to instead of having the world adapt to you (This is very difficult for post-modern individualism, I know)… Is it the fact that Christ had pity and worked miracles?

If you were to choose a god, whom would it be… how would he/she look act and speak?

Peace

 

[happilycatholic]

I see. In other words, multiple groups jump to their own unreasonable conclusions founded on reciprocal prejudices - that way it’s fair.

No, we don’t. As far as being nasty, why is that?

Very well…

Just one?

A baby monitor, specifically the one placed in the baby’s room.

You don’t see the nastiness in your comments?

A baby monitor doesn’t fit the bill. I can see it, touch it, hear it, etc. And what it produces is sound and sometimes a blinking light.

Any others?

 

[aileron]

You don’t see the nastiness in your comments?

The nastiness is not in the comments but in the act they describe – an act that religions worldwide have practiced for millennia and continue to practice.

A baby monitor doesn’t fit the bill. I can see it, touch it, hear it, etc. And what it produces is sound and sometimes a blinking light.

You’re wrong. Here is your challenge:

Quote: Okay, name one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear (besides love, as the going atheistic theory on here is that the brain produces love.)

Breaking it down:

“name one thing that I can see…”

Premise 1: You can see a baby monitor

“that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear…”

Premise 2: You cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear radio waves.

Premise 3: A baby monitor produces radio waves.

Conclusion: Insereed into your own wording:

[a baby monitor is ]one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something [radio waves] I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear

 

[happilycatholic]

Honestly i am stupified, yes stupified, at how you are unable to grasp the term Agnostic Atheist. It is not something made up, as it is a legitimate stance, one that has been explained dozens of times in this thread. Just because you don’t like the fact that the stance is what the majority of atheists hold does not make it invalid.

I don’t like the fact you believe in the bible with no proof, that doesn’t mean being a christian is impossible. I never said that if a deity appeared and was sufficient in revealing himself I would still not believe in him, that would just be plain stupid of me. Until that happens however I don’t believe a deity exists.

Now onto your beloved love argument which I debunked dozens of pages ago with a simple metaphor that you were also unable to grasp. Just because something has yet to be proven by science does not automatically provide sufficient evidence to attribute it to god. If this were the case then by all rights Ra the sun god would be proven in ancient times as we were unable to explain why the sun rises and sets. Zeus would be proven in that thunder and lightning occur and man was unable to explain it’s origins.

Your current argument boils down to, love can’t be explained with science THUS GOD, MY GOD, THE GOD, IS THE ANSWER AND YOU CAN’T PROVE OTHERWISE SO I AM RIGHT.

Please for the love of all that is holy please tell me you can grasp just how dumb your argument really is. Pun very much intended.

Look, I’m not sure why you think my avoidance of your metaphor makes me stupid. I avoid it because it’s no different than the argument we have today (admittedly so by yourself). So it will not make a difference if I answer or not.

You are trying to equate God with some sun god the Egyptians worshipped. Our God has history behind Him. Our God has real witnesses behind Him. But when it comes right down to it, God and Ra are not here so we must CHOOSE. I choose God. I’ve said this a hundred times.

The fact that you “don’t like” my choice is not of consequence to me. Quite frankly I don’t mind at all that you think me ignorant because I don’t humor your redundant arguments.

All I asked is that you give me one example of the same proof you give for love coming from a physical source and you can do nothing but present some tired metaphore that we don’t need because (again admitted by you) we have the same scenario right here, right now.

My current argument boils down to this: You can’t provide me with proof that the origin of love is physical. So I don’t see how you can deny the exsistance of God if you can’t prove the exsistance of love. You demand proof of God but not love. Why is that? And you keep saying I don’t understand atheism. I think it’s you who doesn’t understand agnosticism.

This is the definition of agnostic:

Agnostic:

1. One who belives that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

This describes so completely your position as stated by you time and time again.

Atheist on the other hand:

Atheism:

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. the doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness, immorality.

Notice, no mention of ‘proof’ or doubt. Atheists leave no room for doubt. They are certain there is no God or gods. Period. Even if presented with proof they would continue to deny.

So, finally are you atheist or agnostic?

 

[kalt]

The nastiness is not in the comments but in the act they describe – an act that religions worldwide have practiced for millennia and continue to practice.

You’re wrong. Here is your challenge:

Quote: Okay, name one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear (besides love, as the going atheistic theory on here is that the brain produces love.)

Breaking it down:

“name one thing that I can see…”

Premise 1: You can see a baby monitor

“that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear…”

Premise 2: You cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear radio waves.

Premise 3: A baby monitor produces radio waves.

Conclusion: Insereed into your own wording:

[a baby monitor is ]one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something [radio waves] I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear

If you’re going to admit man-made objects, you have to include all man-made objects.
Radio waves can be detected.

If you believe that they can’t be detected, do you believe that they exist?

 

[happilycatholic]

The nastiness is not in the comments but in the act they describe – an act that religions worldwide have practiced for millennia and continue to practice.

You’re wrong. Here is your challenge:

Quote: Okay, name one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear (besides love, as the going atheistic theory on here is that the brain produces love.)

Breaking it down:

“name one thing that I can see…”

Premise 1: You can see a baby monitor

“that produces something I cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear…”

Premise 2: You cannot see, feel, taste, smell, or hear radio waves.

Premise 3: A baby monitor produces radio waves.

Conclusion: Insereed into your own wording:

[a baby monitor is ]one thing that I can see, feel, taste, smell, or hear that produces something [radio waves] I cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear

I think you’d better go research how radio waves are detected. They are detected with our ears with the use of technology that amplifies (sound already there, only made louder) sound.

Just because we cannot see it with the naked eye does not mean it isn’t physical in form. We are limited by our capacity to hear, but that doesn’t mean the radio waves are not there.

The same goes for molecules or atoms. They are certainly there and can be detected with technology.

Can you show me a love wave? Or a love molecule? Or maybe an atom of love? Just one?

 

[rinnie]

If you can love someone you have experienced God. If you feel you have been Loved you have experience God. If you have never experienced Love or never felt Love and you want to feel love you want God. Pretty simple.

Where is the proof in God, Love. If God does not exist Love does not exist. Because LOve is God. If you want God to exist it will, through you and through your love. If you only have hate, and envy and unhappiness you have never had God. If you do not want Love then you do not want God. If you do, then you want God.

Pretty simple when ya get right down to it,

May God show everyone searching how great and wonderful the gift of Love is. Let then know that when they feel Love or Love someone else that is when your my Dear Lord Jesus Christ are present within. God possess me and help all to feel you love. Amen.

 

[happilycatholic]

Here is a great example of an early atheist:

Atheism has been practiced since the days of Adam. **Cain knew that there was a God but refused to acknowledge Him as such. **He taught his children this and they accepted his teachings. Though many lived righteous lives they did not accept God as being the founder of all righteousness.

 

[happilycatholic]

If you can love someone you have experienced God. If you feel you have been Loved you have experience God. If you have never experienced Love or never felt Love and you want to feel love you want God. Pretty simple.

Where is the proof in God, Love. If God does not exist Love does not exist. Because LOve is God. If you want God to exist it will, through you and through your love. If you only have hate, and envy and unhappiness you have never had God. If you do not want Love then you do not want God. If you do, then you want God.

Pretty simple when ya get right down to it,

May God show everyone searching how great and wonderful the gift of Love is. Let then know that when they feel Love or Love someone else that is when your my Dear Lord Jesus Christ are present within. God possess me and help all to feel you love. Amen.

Thank you rinnie

 

[Annabea]

I’ve already mentioned some of those reasons in an earlier post. And I do watch “Animal Planet” from time to time, so I’ve seen things.

No, you don’t know. You won’t admit it because you believe your god is love, if so why can’t animals love? Wouldn’t all animals follow god because they new nothing else? Please explain.

 

[Annabea]

My first question to you would be: Can you prove there isn’t a God, a Higher Power? How do you explain the order in the Universe?

First off: Thank you! You worded it correctly! Most people say “Can you prove that god doesn’t exist?” I thank that you mention all gods, such as Zeus and Odin, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I cannot prove that their isn’t a god, other than show all the evidence that you have heard again and again that is already stacked against. My first question is: Can you prove that there is a god, a higher power?
How do I explain the universe? We do not have the technology to do much with space yet. So I simply say that it is unknown. We are but humble humans on a humble planet in the middle of an (there isn’t a word for how big it is) immeasurable universe. We are most likely not the only planet that can sustain life (out of our solar system). Though it is probably uncommon. But we do not know.