Hello

[mrhenrik]

What would be adequate proof? It appears you have made your own perception of what is reasonable and trustworthy as the standard to be met.

To be honest I’m not sure, but I reckon if he did show up he’d have some way of showing me. ;p

If God did come,and you did accept Him, this is, by definition, agnosticism. What you are saying is that you presently cannot “know” God, but that if He convinced you of who He was, you could then “know” HIm, and therefore, would not longer be “agnostic” but believing.

I see what you mean, but I disagree with you. I don’t think there is a god, but of course I cannot be compeletely sure about this because it is impossible to prove a negative. So, obviously, I’m quite sure he’s never going to show up for coffee.

However, I was given a scenario where he actually did show up for coffee, and although I’m 99% sure he’s not going to, if I was ever in a situation where god stood on my doorstep, asked for coffee and somehow proved that he was god, I’d believe him. This does not mean that I’m an agnostic - both sides are unproveable so I’ll stay inbetween, I am still an atheist - I don’t believe god exists.

Well, lessee…if it is a velociraptor, you will probably become breakfast, rather than having any.

Hope that you are in error. Hope that 100% proof is not needed for you to experience the joy of faith and believing. Where else is such a standard applied? I challenge you to produce anything that meets this criteria.

Actually the 100% proof was meant the other way around, it cannot be proven with 100% certainty that god does not exist. I have already experienced the joys of faith and believing though.

I’ll think about your challenge, but right now I cannot find anything. However, there is very few “acceptances” which comes with such a heavy “bonus package” as god (confession, church, no sinning, etc) that it must be thought through even more than for instance “did Alexander the Great exist” - I’m not going to dedicate my life to him anyhow.

 

[guanophore]

Eh, not really. Depends, if I have completed my goals in life or not. It will be sad if I die young.

It sounds as if your sense of fulfillment is centered entirely around yourself.

 

[guanophore]

More excuses for your incompetent God.

This is a curious statement. What is the standard used to evaluate “competency”?

How did the Judeo Christian God fall short of the standard?

 

[josie_L]

Every time I start my car.

Jesus doesn’t particularly concern me; it’s his followers that do.

And why do his followers concern you?

 

[kalt]

Hm, alright. I wonder though, what the difference is between survival of the fittest and natural selection?

Because this life is the only one we have, it is so immensively precious. I know that I cherish this spark of life that I’ve been lucky enough to get, and most others also probably do, so I would never consider taking it away from them. I look at others, and when I see them in a situation I know would suck to be in, I try to help them out of it so they also can enjoy this tiny little spark of life we have.

Emotions like morality and empathy are also things that are hard-wired into our brains through natural selection - it is not something which has to come from a god.

This is again something gained through natural selection. The species who do not care about reproduction, does not reproduce, and thus their genes won’t move on. The species who do care about reproduction, reproduce, and their reproduction-friendly genes carry on until all/most are reproduction-friendly.

The purpose of the continuation of the species, again this is hard-wired into our brains through evolution but I also want to let others enjoy this little life we have.

I don’t know the case of the black widow spiders, but surely it has evolved through natural selection. Somehow, the males who offered themselves to be eaten during sex had more chance of getting sex, and thus their “suicidal” genes carry on.

When I realise that my time is nearing it’s end, and I have something I can leave for those who still have a lot of time to enjoy life, I will of course give it to them. Again, natural selection. Those given these things by their parents/grandparents have a bigger chance of survival, and thus the “generous” genes have more chance of multiplying.

This I am not entirely sure of, but I believe that it is difficult for humans to fall in love with more than one person (perhaps through natural selection), and thus that stance has been promoted.

Hasn’t it already? You don’t have to go far back in time to see the average length of life decreasing notably.

This I disagree with, because religion teaches us to be happy with what we already know.

Love cannot be detected right now, just like radio waves could not be detected 500 years ago. This does not mean love will never be detected.

How does the current undetectability of love prove Yahwe, and why are you so hung up in the definitions of agnosticism and atheism? What are your definitions of the two terms, so we can clear that up?

Now you’re getting it.

I think your arguments about God’s impossibility (or is it improbability) have just fallen apart.

You’re starting to see that God can’t be proven or disproven scientifically. To claim that science is a reason to not believe in God is to really misunderstand science’s limitations. So many atheists claim that they don’t believe in God because they accept science.

I suppose science is as good as any other excuse for not believing. I’m surprised, though, that so many atheists come here to tell us that they don’t believe, and then seem to need to tell us why, as if they need to prove to us that they are right.

Why would we care? And why do they care if we think they’re right or wrong?

You sound like a bunch of teenagers who desperately want to tell others what you’ve “discovered”, because you think it’s brilliant and new and maybe even a little shocking. You wonder how we older folks could have missed the obvious.

 

[DavidHume]

Sounds like you need a safer car.

_enginecombustion, though you’re right. An electric car would be a bit safer in that respect.

Then yes, Jesus has had an impact on you due to the fact His followers “concern” you. Not to mention, you also stated that you yourself are an apostate. (not quite in those terms obviously)

Sure but Mohammed’s followers concern me too.

As far as “apostate” goes, that’s technically true – but it seemed a bit naïve to think that the correct religion just happens to be the one that my parents believe.

 

[DavidHume]

And why do his followers concern you?

Because they insist on imposing their beliefs on me and those that I love, whether through political activism or through subtle conflicts within families.

 

[josie_L]

I was asked where I thought love came from, I gave him my 5 cents. Why are you being such a jerk?

We don’t want your 5 cents, we want material proof for your hypothesis, if you want to convince us of your argument.

Why is my life precious? I only have one. If I am an atheist, I have no belief in god. This is where atheism begins and ends, and how is that so difficult to comprehend around here?

So, you are positive that God does not exist?

I don’t know much on the topic, but I’m quite sure the mentally impaired have a lower capacity of love.

There’s no proof as far as I know, personally I was just hypothesizing and I clearly stated that in my first post about it.

Firstly, my post was not directed to you (but I don’t mind that you answered it). Secondly, I work with children who are mentally impaired and I have not seen from observation a lower capacity to love. And there are too many anomalies amongst humans to suggest that love is based on the size of a species’ brain as we can see that within our own species that love varies very much so on the individual. Thirdly, someone stated that love is a learnt behaviour (through the process of evolution we learnt to love), but how is love necessary to our survival? Do any of you know who the Stoics are? They managed to live as free of emotion as possible, and help their fellow man (they took a more utilitarian approach to philantropy). My next question is, why do we feel compelled to love (even when it hurts and doesn’t prove to be beneficial to us)?

 

[josie_L]

Because they insist on imposing their beliefs on me and those that I love, whether through political activism or through subtle conflicts within families.

No one can impose anything upon us, we live in a democracy, remember. So what’s with the worries? Do you think we want a theocracy? And what’s wrong with Christians being political active, are their goals sinister (ending abortion and/or embryonic stem cell research, preserving traditional marriage. . . .)?

 

[jam070406]

Because they insist on imposing their beliefs on me and those that I love, whether through political activism or through subtle conflicts within families.

So you registered on a Catholic forum to try and beat up on the enemy?

 

[josie_L]

Jesus doesn’t particularly concern me; it’s his followers that do.

I just realized this statement doesn’t make sense. How can you understand the follower if their leader doesn’t particularly concern you.

 

[DavidHume]

I just realized this statement doesn’t make sense. How can you understand the follower if their leader doesn’t particularly concern you.

L. Ron Hubbard is dead and his religion and thought is not of particular interest to me. The present-day tactics and actions of his church do concern me.

 

[josie_L]

L. Ron Hubbard is dead and his religion and thought is not of particular interest to me. The present-day tactics and actions of his church do concern me.

It won’t help you to understand (and fight) his followers, if you can’t understand who their leader is (and they are a cult not a christian denomination/church). Why aren’t you more concerned with satanic cults, moral relativism, communism, fascism, materialism, pornography/promisicuity, terrorism . . . etc. Do you think these forces/ideologies are less of a threat to us than Christianity? You are fighting a boogeyman of your own making.

 

[jam070406]

It won’t help you to understand (and fight) his followers, if you can’t understand who their leader is (and they are a cult not a christian denomination/church). Why aren’t you more concerned with satanic cults, moral relativism, communism, fascism, materialism, pornography/promisicuity, terrorism . . . etc. Do you think these forces/ideologies are less of a threat to us than Christianity? You are fighting a boogeyman of your own making.

I couldn’t agree more. Why aren’t these atheists focusing their energy on Muslims? Going on to Islamic sites and challenging them about the threat of Islamic terrorism today that is actually killing innocent people. In the end, it doesn’t matter to them because it’s all self centered and based on what strokes their own ego. IMHO, I don’t even believe some of the atheists on here care about each other, other then the triumphalism that results from one of their peers insulting Christianity.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

It won’t help you to understand (and fight) his followers, if you can’t understand who their leader is (and they are a cult not a christian denomination/church). Why aren’t you more concerned with satanic cults, moral relativism, communism, fascism, materialism, pornography/promisicuity, terrorism . . . etc. Do you think these forces/ideologies are less of a threat to us than Christianity? You are fighting a boogeyman of your own making.

I can take a guess as to why. It is because in the atheistic secular humanist mind set it morality is relative. since all but the terrorist in your list do not take a stance as to not being able to decide your own morality they are no concern. They do not realize it is all a concern of every one and that without a set moral compass to go by everyone is free to choose right and wrong for themselves and if you have something I want there really is no reason to stop me from taking it. or you from killing me for doing so.

 

[crazyrunner]

Annabea,
Here is a quote from a preist at my church that might help you put things in perspective, " If you believe in God and there isn’t one, you lose nothing, but, if you don’t believe in God and there is one, you lose everything." Better to believe than not wouldn’t you say? What is the purpose of your life?

 

[kalt]

Because they insist on imposing their beliefs on me and those that I love, whether through political activism or through subtle conflicts within families.

Do you have a specific example of a belief is imposed on you?

Do you believe that Christians shouldn’t get invloved in politics? If not Christians, then who should be allowed? Atheists only?

Certainly an atheist is working with a set of principles. Does an atheist have more right to “impose” his beliefs (based on his principles) on others?

Can you give an example of a moral principle you hold that is opposed to a Christian moral principle?

 

[StevieD]

Because they insist on imposing their beliefs on me and those that I love, whether through political activism or through subtle conflicts within families.

What are you bothering Catholics for when there are people out there who really and intentionally do what you claim to be concerned about. Why not go and bother the JW’s the Adventists, the LDS, the Scientologists and other American founded cults - give the tele-evangelists a go too. As L Ron said, if you really want to make money in the US you have to found a religion, these cults wouldn’t have had any recruits anywhere else.

 

[James924]

Annabea,
Here is a quote from a preist at my church that might help you put things in perspective, " If you believe in God and there isn’t one, you lose nothing, but, if you don’t believe in God and there is one, you lose everything." Better to believe than not wouldn’t you say? What is the purpose of your life?

“Pascal’s Wager.”

Good food for thought.

 

[James924]

Why is my life precious? I only have one. If I am an atheist, I have no belief in god. This is where atheism begins and ends, and how is that so difficult to comprehend around here?

I asked what gave you the idea that your life has value. Value is objective. You keep repeating things like “Atheism is the lack of belief in God. End of story.” But thats erroneous. Atheism is what it is and it is all the things that come with it. Theism as well as the lack thereof both have resulting features within a person’s worldview. One of the necessary qualities of non-theism is relatavism. As a non-theist you cannot believe anything really has value, but rather that people “think” it has value. Maybe you don’t know much about your own worldview. I never thought I’d brag about once being an atheist, but man at least I knew what atheism was. Please stop regurgitating the line “Atheism is the lack of belief in God. End of story.” that line is incorrect. Where did you get it? Atheism is a worldview. It has many aspects. One of them is relativism. Relative truth, relative morality (as opposed to objective.)

Someone a few posts earlier gave practical reasons why atheists should feel no need to be good to others or to have compassion (i.e. no reward in heaven). Practical reasons, however, are not necessary. The fact is that a lack of theism simply does not provide for objective truth. Everything in life is relative. A matter of perspective. Thanks be to God that isn’t true.