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There are so many people in this world. There are bound to be some amazing occurrences. We now have the wonders of medicine and science. There are some so called “We prayed and now he is cured!” but the outcome would have been the same if they hadn’t prayed. There are also some "We refused to give her treatment and believed that god would cure her, now she is dead. " What do you call that? catholic catastrophes? Sorry if that sounds harsh. But I’m serious, coincidence.
And I thank you, I have had way to many Christians on my back trying to convert me lately.
There are occurances in the world which science cannot explain, though. For example, miraculous cures. A miracle is not a miracle if it can be scientifically explained. The Eucharistic miracles are scientifically inexplaiable, and the Catholic Church always gives precedure to science when it comes to investigating miracles. Dose this make sense?
 
Annabea,

Let me ask you this instead…do you believe George Washington was the first President of The United States? I am not trying to convert you…just like you are trying to get a better understanding what people believe in this forum, I am trying to better understand you.
 
There are occurances in the world which science cannot explain, though. For example, miraculous cures. A miracle is not a miracle if it can be scientifically explained. The Eucharistic miracles are scientifically inexplaiable, and the Catholic Church always gives precedure to science when it comes to investigating miracles. Dose this make sense?
Yes it does, but this does not prove that it is because of some creator.
 
Annabea,

Let me ask you this instead…do you believe George Washington was the first President of The United States? I am not trying to convert you…just like you are trying to get a better understanding what people believe in this forum, I am trying to better understand you.
I got to go, your question will take more thought and time than I have at the moment, I will answer it later though.
 
Annabea,
I want you to know that I have discussed religious subjects online with atheists and agnostics (mostly professed atheists), and their logic and certainly their kindness haven’t impressed me at all. I think you should reconsider “debating” religion. Why not just find ways to actually do good in the world, or spend time reading classical literature and studying the creative works of art and music done by so many talented people in the world? Then really read the Bible (starting with the New Testament) and think about how those concepts taught there have impacted the world around you.

Atheists and agnostics have never experienced the kind of change of heart or change of purpose in their life that grew into a way of “changed being” or “changed persona”, so they have no basis to compare their life with a believer in Jesus Christ. Find someone whose life has been changed by living the gospel of Christ, then ask them in person about how that change has affected them. Then you may begin to have an inkling of understanding about how religion helps people in this world. Otherwise, it is going to be pure guesswork on your part, and lead you to totally wrong conclusions and thus your debating would be completely pointless.
 
There are so many people in this world. There are bound to be some amazing occurrences. We now have the wonders of medicine and science. There are some so called “We prayed and now he is cured!” but the outcome would have been the same if they hadn’t prayed. There are also some "We refused to give her treatment and believed that god would cure her, now she is dead. " What do you call that? catholic catastrophes? Sorry if that sounds harsh. But I’m serious, coincidence.
And I thank you, I have had way to many Christians on my back trying to convert me lately.
And so you decided that joining a Catholic forum would be the best way to get those pesky Christians off your back? 😃
 
Hello. I am an atheist. Now before you start spitting on my shoes I would like to know a little about what you believe? Belief usually varies from person to person that is why I did not post this in the admin/mod answer question thingy. I would like to know what you think about religion, how you think it is effecting the world, and why you believe what you do.
Thanks!
~Annabea
What do I think about religion? I think that religion is man’s response to the Divine. I believe that all people, across the world have some experience of the Divine - of the mystical touching them in some way. This experience naturally elicits a response. And so you have prophets, holy men, etc. They spread the word about their experience and how they experienced IT.

Unfortunately, not all people being of the mystical bent, the way to experience IT was to set down rules. These rules became the worlds religions.

In many ways, the overall effect of religion on the world has been good. There are some cases where it has not, and we shouldn’t be blind to those. What gives me hope is that religions are always undergoing reformation and reformation.
 
If you’d like to better understand Catholicism, I recommend reading the Baltimore Catechism, an easy-to-read book on the Catholic Faith: catholicinformationcenteroninternet.org/Catechism/index.html
:rolleyes:

If you want to understand Catholicism - I would recommend that, after you read the Baltimore Catechism, that you read Andrew Greeley’s work “The Catholic Revolution - New Wine into Old Wineskins”. You will get a vision of why people reacted so strongly during and after Vatican II.

But that is a discussion for another thread.
 
Annabea,

Let me ask you this instead…do you believe George Washington was the first President of The United States? I am not trying to convert you…just like you are trying to get a better understanding what people believe in this forum, I am trying to better understand you.
Interesting metaphor. I do, there is no reason though. I was taught in school to believe it just like you were taught to believe your faith. Our minds work on a basic do what you are told method, you are not going to believe everything but something you just throw aside. Like that I belive that george washington was the first president. I have no reason not to believe he is but I am not going to go after him and praise him as our first president. That would be going to far don’t you think? And I don’t really care. Now if I was to join a “George Washington was the first president forum” then I might want to overlook my beliefs and find if there is truth or not to the words that they say.
 
Annabea,
I want you to know that I have discussed religious subjects online with atheists and agnostics (mostly professed atheists), and their logic and certainly their kindness haven’t impressed me at all. I think you should reconsider “debating” religion. Why not just find ways to actually do good in the world, or spend time reading classical literature and studying the creative works of art and music done by so many talented people in the world? Then really read the Bible (starting with the New Testament) and think about how those concepts taught there have impacted the world around you.

Atheists and agnostics have never experienced the kind of change of heart or change of purpose in their life that grew into a way of “changed being” or “changed persona”, so they have no basis to compare their life with a believer in Jesus Christ. Find someone whose life has been changed by living the gospel of Christ, then ask them in person about how that change has affected them. Then you may begin to have an inkling of understanding about how religion helps people in this world. Otherwise, it is going to be pure guesswork on your part, and lead you to totally wrong conclusions and thus your debating would be completely pointless.
Is there not enough time in the world to do both? Parker, I love debating. Not all atheists and agnostics are rude (I really hope you don’t find me rude). As for the logic, it takes a different kind of mind set than what you have I guess. You have to have an open mind open to all possibilities, thats why I do what to learn why you are what you are. If I am not to compare my life to yours why are you telling me what I do and don’t feel Mr. Parker? I would rather you not tell me what I know and what I don’t Mr. Parker.
 
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josie_L:
And so you decided that joining a Catholic forum would be the best way to get those pesky Christians off your back? 😃
🙂 Nope, just looking for some good Christians.
 
I do not love my enemies. I do not hate them. I don’t hate anyone, I am actually not a grudge holder. I don’t like the feeling of anger.

Actually, I am not here because I have a spark of faith. I belong to an atheist forum that pointed me in this direction because I am trying to get some experience in debating. I also need to learn the Christians side of things before I am to debate fully. So this is a learning experience more than a faith journey. Thanks though.
a learning experience is part of the journey.

as for not being a grudge holder, good for you. but being 12 probably helps in that arena a bit.

may i recommend that since you came here to learn that you be open to what you do hear here. you are a fan of evolution i see. but remember that evolution is called the “theory” of evolution. there aren’t a lot of real facts to back evolution either. sure there are many concepts that have been developed over the years that are presented as fact but it is act of faith to believe everything that the evolutionists tell you.

just keep asking questions and keep an open mind. faith and reason DO go together.
 
I think the OP’s faith in the Theory of Evolution is interesting, given the amount of hoaxes perpetrated in the pursuit of the Darwinian “truth”. Piltdown man and Peppered moths, anyone? We’ve had over a century now to find the missing fossils and still nothing. Yes, we’ve had lots of brouhaha in the atheist world over nothing… I’m thinking of the fossil that looks like roadkill that was highly publicized in the media a few weeks ago. LOL. There was nothing new there, except for the fact that this creature was the best preserved of its kind that has been found to date. Hoax after hoax after hoax, and yet she still believes. That’s the power of faith. Even atheists have it. There is a God-shaped whole in every human being. Atheists fill that hole with self-worship and the belief that our human minds possess the ability to understand everything there is to know about the universe. Atheists love science, in fact, they love science so much that they believe it belongs entirely to them! The history of the Catholic Church and science has been well-documented and much ignored by our Western culture, except for the twisted version of the Galileo Affair. I wonder if the OP realizes just how much of a contribution the Catholic Church has made to science. In fact, it was a Catholic priest that created the Big Bang Theory.

"It is all very well to point out that important scientists, like Louis Pasteur, have been Catholic. More revealing is how many priests have distinguished themselves in the sciences. It turns out, for instance, that the first person to measure the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body was Fr. Giambattista Riccioli. The man who has been called the father of Egyptology was Fr. Athanasius Kircher (also called “master of a hundred arts” for the breadth of his knowledge). Fr. Roger Boscovich, who has been described as “the greatest genius that Yugoslavia ever produced,” has often been called the father of modern atomic theory.

In the sciences it was the Jesuits in particular who distinguished themselves; some 35 craters on the moon, in fact, are named after Jesuit scientists and mathematicians.

By the eighteenth century, the Jesuits

had contributed to the development of pendulum clocks, pantographs, barometers, reflecting telescopes and microscopes, to scientific fields as various as magnetism, optics and electricity. They observed, in some cases before anyone else, the colored bands on Jupiter’s surface, the Andromeda nebula and Saturn’s rings. They theorized about the circulation of the blood (independently of Harvey), the theoretical possibility of flight, the way the moon effected the tides, and the wave-like nature of light. Star maps of the southern hemisphere, symbolic logic, flood-control measures on the Po and Adige rivers, introducing plus and minus signs into Italian mathematics – all were typical Jesuit achievements, and scientists as influential as Fermat, Huygens, Leibniz and Newton were not alone in counting Jesuits among their most prized correspondents [Jonathan Wright, The Jesuits, 2004, p. 189]."

There rest of the summary of the book *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *is here:

lewrockwell.com/woods/woods40.html

I think that any conversation with an atheist needs to be predicated on the understanding that faith and science are not incompatible. In fact, they are entirely harmonious. It is only by the existence of a logical Creator that we are able to study Creation, with the laws of Science. If the world had been created out of chaos, it would be chaotic. It is not. Hence we have the “Laws of Science”. Or as I would call it, the roadmap to discovering God through His Creation.
 
Is there not enough time in the world to do both? Parker, I love debating. Not all atheists and agnostics are rude (I really hope you don’t find me rude). As for the logic, it takes a different kind of mind set than what you have I guess. You have to have an open mind open to all possibilities, thats why I do what to learn why you are what you are. If I am not to compare my life to yours why are you telling me what I do and don’t feel Mr. Parker? I would rather you not tell me what I know and what I don’t Mr. Parker.
Annabea,
I said you wouldn’t have a basis of understanding a believer who has had an inner “change of heart.” Apparently you think you do have that understanding. Perhaps you can explain what that means to you, to have had a “change of heart.” I didn’t intend to tell you what you know, only that there is something you haven’t experienced.

I don’t find you rude, by the way. Do you want to debate doctrinal issues, philosophical issues, or the very idea of religion in and of itself?
 
a learning experience is part of the journey.

as for not being a grudge holder, good for you. but being 12 probably helps in that arena a bit.

may i recommend that since you came here to learn that you be open to what you do hear here. you are a fan of evolution i see. but remember that evolution is called the “theory” of evolution. there aren’t a lot of real facts to back evolution either. sure there are many concepts that have been developed over the years that are presented as fact but it is act of faith to believe everything that the evolutionists tell you.

just keep asking questions and keep an open mind. faith and reason DO go together.
Yes, but evolution is a scientific theory. There is a difference, it takes time and evidence before you can call a theory a scientific theory. So, if something is a scientific theory it has evidence backing it, it isn’t blind faith. I do not believe everything science tells me, that would be foolish. Science has been proved wrong again and again. With every fail there is gain. Scientists have been narrowing down the possibilities for hundreds of years. I do not believe everything science tells me. (Science includes evolutionists, just thought I needed to broaden the category.)
 
I think the OP’s faith in the Theory of Evolution is interesting, given the amount of hoaxes perpetrated in the pursuit of the Darwinian “truth”. Piltdown man and Peppered moths, anyone? We’ve had over a century now to find the missing fossils and still nothing. Yes, we’ve had lots of brouhaha in the atheist world over nothing… I’m thinking of the fossil that looks like roadkill that was highly publicized in the media a few weeks ago. LOL. There was nothing new there, except for the fact that this creature was the best preserved of its kind that has been found to date. Hoax after hoax after hoax, and yet she still believes. That’s the power of faith. Even atheists have it. There is a God-shaped whole in every human being. Atheists fill that hole with self-worship and the belief that our human minds possess the ability to understand everything there is to know about the universe. Atheists love science, in fact, they love science so much that they believe it belongs entirely to them! The history of the Catholic Church and science has been well-documented and much ignored by our Western culture, except for the twisted version of the Galileo Affair. I wonder if the OP realizes just how much of a contribution the Catholic Church has made to science. In fact, it was a Catholic priest that created the Big Bang Theory.

"It is all very well to point out that important scientists, like Louis Pasteur, have been Catholic. More revealing is how many priests have distinguished themselves in the sciences. It turns out, for instance, that the first person to measure the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body was Fr. Giambattista Riccioli. The man who has been called the father of Egyptology was Fr. Athanasius Kircher (also called “master of a hundred arts” for the breadth of his knowledge). Fr. Roger Boscovich, who has been described as “the greatest genius that Yugoslavia ever produced,” has often been called the father of modern atomic theory.

In the sciences it was the Jesuits in particular who distinguished themselves; some 35 craters on the moon, in fact, are named after Jesuit scientists and mathematicians.

By the eighteenth century, the Jesuits

had contributed to the development of pendulum clocks, pantographs, barometers, reflecting telescopes and microscopes, to scientific fields as various as magnetism, optics and electricity. They observed, in some cases before anyone else, the colored bands on Jupiter’s surface, the Andromeda nebula and Saturn’s rings. They theorized about the circulation of the blood (independently of Harvey), the theoretical possibility of flight, the way the moon effected the tides, and the wave-like nature of light. Star maps of the southern hemisphere, symbolic logic, flood-control measures on the Po and Adige rivers, introducing plus and minus signs into Italian mathematics – all were typical Jesuit achievements, and scientists as influential as Fermat, Huygens, Leibniz and Newton were not alone in counting Jesuits among their most prized correspondents [Jonathan Wright, The Jesuits, 2004, p. 189]."

There rest of the summary of the book *How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization *is here:

lewrockwell.com/woods/woods40.html

I think that any conversation with an atheist needs to be predicated on the understanding that faith and science are not incompatible. In fact, they are entirely harmonious. It is only by the existence of a logical Creator that we are able to study Creation, with the laws of Science. If the world had been created out of chaos, it would be chaotic. It is not. Hence we have the “Laws of Science”. Or as I would call it, the roadmap to discovering God through His Creation.
Evolution is one of many scientific theorys. It has yet to be disproven. I do not completely believe in evolution, I am agnostic to the idea. We share 99% of our DNA with chimps, supposedly. I do not know how they came up with that but I respect that they did come up with that in some way that is accurate, it is not my place to say. I am more willing to believe that than a book saying I was created out of a mans rib. As for the big band theory, I am agnostic to that also, I have been telling myself I really need to read more on it.
 
Annabea,
I said you wouldn’t have a basis of understanding a believer who has had an inner “change of heart.” Apparently you think you do have that understanding. Perhaps you can explain what that means to you, to have had a “change of heart.” I didn’t intend to tell you what you know, only that there is something you haven’t experienced.

I don’t find you rude, by the way. Do you want to debate doctrinal issues, philosophical issues, or the very idea of religion in and of itself?
I do not understand the religious fully (part of the reason I came here). There are lots of things I haven’t experienced, no one can experience everything. Maybe I have experienced it, maybe what you think is faith or a god shaped hole is really something else.
And the very idea of religion.
 
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