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otjm
Guest
You may feel it is unkind, but it is succinct, direct, to the point, and spot on. The poster to whom you responded could have taken several paragraphs to say the same thing, but whY/ to be “nice”?
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otjm
Guest
and your point Is - that you and the OP should be tending to business of which you have no
knowledge?
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otjm
Guest
Some people in this thread seem unable to read critically.
If it is the third person in the string, they have repeated and regular contact with the community.
Right here is the start of the problem. The OP goes on to make statements, but it is totally unclear as to which person he is speaking about at any given moment.
Here are the second and third problems. It is a monastic community regular and somewhat more than superficial relationships with certain people. One of those people is either the OP’s friend, or the individual the friend introduced the OP to. Which is it?
If it is the third person in the string, they have repeated and regular contact with the community.
Now we seem to introduce a fourth person into the group.
Whoever is the subject of this part of the thread is suspected of being a Protestant for using a Protestant bible and has referred to Protestant devotional materials** in a small group** which may, or may not be, all Protestant, or some Protestant.
And which of the other three (or maybe 7) aare we addressing? all based on “It seems”, from flimsy evidence.
We have at least one, and possible as many as 6 people attending a monastic community for retreats and many other matters. It is highly likely the members of the community, or at least some of them, know the people doing this far, far better than the OP. For all the OP knows (and they don’t know much, by their own admission), the person causing this stir may well be Catholic; and in the alternative, may be someone becoming Catholic, or someone who for reasons known to them and the community, is not able to make a public profession of faith, In some circumstances, they may be admitted to Communion, in spite of what a few of the posters herein may feel (see, for example, cardinal Ratzinger giving Communion to the head of the Taize Community of France at John Paul 2’s funeral.
Mind you own business. The likelihood that the Community is ignorant appears to be somewhere between exceedingly low and non-existent. The likelihood of you being able to address the matter with the correct person (who very likely is not the celebrant) is low, and the likelihood they will give you any information whatsoever is about non-existent (as it is none of your business).
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TaylorDonBarret
Guest
We can go back and forth quoting Scripture and Church doctrine all day long. In the end, its still a matter of interpretation. And one thing we know from the gospels is that Jesus does not interpret the laws of God in a rigid, legalistic manner. He does emphasize that, if we are to be judged fairly, the law is actually far more strict and severe than we could possibly imagine. But when it comes to the application of that law, Jesus shows us time and time again that His one sole motivation is to capture our hearts.Not so fast.
Just because you disagree, doesn’t mean my explanation is too rigid or contrary to the Church or the Gospel.
Example:
Here’s what Jesus says is going to happen in the end. He ought to know since He is the one who will judge ALL. And obviously He can’t lie, nor mislead. He is showing here, that He is a tough judge.
in extension, we can’t be sloppy, or discount, what Jesus teaches, especially in passing on information to others, or THAT sloppiness from us, comes back on US if as a result we caused another to fall…
For context to that see Ez 3:17-21
Matthew 7:13-14 ,
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Note: ἀπώλεια, apóleia: = destruction, eternal ruin.
Luke 13:23-28 ,
23 And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ 28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth,
Jesus knowing in advance what He is going to go through, and all that humanity will go through, answers that question directly.
Sound too rigid for you?
- Jesus didn’t deny the questioner’s point. He didn’t correct him or say that he was wrong to say only a few are saved.
- Jesus actually validated the point, and expanded on it.
- If only a few are saved in the end, that means everyone else isn’t.
To stress a few points,
Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
Is Paul being too rigid ?
To the point of the thread and non Catholics receiving the Eucharist.
For their own protection, they aren’t invited to receive the Eucharist. Nowhere in Church documents does the Church say a Protestant can walk off the street and receive the Eucharist.
contex context context
Faith without Works Is Dead
James 2:
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.**(“Jas2 RSVCE - Warning against Partiality - My - Bible Gateway”)] 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?c] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
Are you equating the Eucharist with just everyday general food?
Those priests couldn’t change that bread into anything other than
bread
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steve_b
Guest
True. And that interpretation should be informed and formed properly
You mean He(Jesus) doesn’t apply His laws as He says He will?
When He says only a few will be saved, #38
He is God the savior, the one who will judge EVERY soul. He is telling us that result in advance because He’s God and knows that.
What’s your response to that?
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I agree with your thoughts, but asking about Baptism, Confirmation and first Holy Communion would not give you the information you seek. Any good Lutheran, Anglican, Old Catholic, Orthodox, etc, etc would be able to answer you. And perhaps anyone from those branches of the Church would happily receive communion in an RC Mass.Perhaps you can share your experience and then ask your friend where they were Baptized and Confirmed - what their best first Holy Communion memory is … then you will know …
Good loving communication is not to be feared buy embraced
^ THIS THIS THIS.
I’m surprised you’re the only one so far who has noted that the OP’s post, is speculation and assumption, based only on certain hints he took as “evidence” the person in question is not Catholic. As if Catholics always have to speak Catholic-ese, such as the Rosary, Mary and the Saints.
Catholics, especially ill-catechized but well meaning ones, often send links to other Christian resources, perhaps because they are “inspiring.”
But none, none of these things are incontrovertible proof that the person in question is a non-Catholic. That’s speculation, and you don’t act merely on speculation.
Your initial advice, for all the noise in this thread, is in fact, the correct one.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Speak to the parish priest and tell him yout concerns regarding this.
But as to seemingly Protestant practices at prayer groups, I know of a couple who I believe converted from a Protestant denomination to Catholicism and at a prayer group they led, which I once attended, there seemexs to be no mention of Catholic devotional practices, little mention of Mary, the Catechism etc and the approach to scripture seemed to hold it as an authority above all else. I found it quite uncomfortable (troubling even) yet they were indeed Catholics.
But I think it is your business. You are concerned about the possibility that a non-Catholic might be receiving Communion, and that is a valid concern. Speak to the parish priest.
But as to seemingly Protestant practices at prayer groups, I know of a couple who I believe converted from a Protestant denomination to Catholicism and at a prayer group they led, which I once attended, there seemexs to be no mention of Catholic devotional practices, little mention of Mary, the Catechism etc and the approach to scripture seemed to hold it as an authority above all else. I found it quite uncomfortable (troubling even) yet they were indeed Catholics.
But I think it is your business. You are concerned about the possibility that a non-Catholic might be receiving Communion, and that is a valid concern. Speak to the parish priest.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
Yes, but he should be informed of the Catholic position/teaching regarding receiving the Eucharist as it is possible he doesn’t know he shouldn’t receive.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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YADA
Guest
While I agree that you might still not know …you may actually learn much and it starts a dialogue that is not focused on telling someone they can’t receive Communion …once you are speaking of faith there are multiple ways to seek out what faith tradition person is …though for most it’s not that hard … You’ll know quickly …
I would hazard a guess that most people know quickly what my faith tradition is and not because I announce it …but being a Christian and specifically Catholic is foundational to who I am. I anchor every week with Mass, pray before every meal no matter where or with whom …and if asked I freely admit it.
We have a work retreat coming in August with expectation of after hours gatherings with staff since we work in various states …August 15th is a Holy Day …I have already found the nearest parish in a nearby town and the Mass schedule …offered my car for carpooling to location since I informed the Directors and my supervisor that I need be able to get to Mass, and told them I would work with the agenda to get to Mass and meet my work day and I would participate in the after hours gathering that evening to best of my ability.
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OraLabora
Guest
It was not a parish, but a monastery, making it difficult to speak to the celebrant who retires to the enclosure after Mass.
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Brendan_64
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Then phone and speak to the Abbot or get an appointment to see him.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Speak to him about what?
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OraLabora
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Tell him you suspect a Protestant received the Eucharist?
I doubt he’d give you the time of day. You’d likely get to see the monk delegated to deal with outsiders. He might “take note of your concern”, but remind you that it is a conventual Mass not a parish Mass, and that it’s an internal matter.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Which would be quite a sad response. Whether it is a conventual Mass or a parish Mass, whether it is held in a monastery or a pariah church, surely the protection of the Blessed Sacrament from sacrilege is a matter for all the faithful? We are obliged to make such matters known and a high-handed or dismissive response would be disgraceful considering the issue involves possible sacrilege of the Blessed Sacrament. An abbot authority over his monks, but he does not own the Blessed Sacrament.
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TaylorDonBarret
Guest
The thief on the cross demonstrates that God’s mercy extends to those we would least expect to make it to Heaven. This conversation, however, is about whether we should make a big deal out of non-Catholic Christians receiving the Eucharist. Such people, already filled with The Holy Spirit, are not unfit to consume God who is already inside them.
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steve_b
Guest
It is sad.
Excerpts from a following article
“A Catholic must be in a state of grace to receive Holy Communion, and anyone aware of being in a state of mortal sin must first receive absolution in the Sacrament of Penance (Catechism, No. 1415). Therefore, a non-practicing Catholic who has negligently not attended Mass or who has abandoned the teachings of the Church is not in a state of grace and cannot receive Holy Communion. A non-practicing Catholic who receives Holy Communion commits the sin of sacrilege — the abuse of a sacrament — and causes scandal among the faithful. St. Paul reminded the Corinthians: “Every time, then, you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes! This means that whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily sins against the body and blood of the Lord. A man should examine himself first; only then should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1 Cor 11:26-28). What then about non-Catholics? …”
Vatican II recognized that the Protestant Churches “have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic Mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the Sacrament of Holy Orders” (“Decree on Ecumenism,” No. 22). For this very reason, the sharing of Holy Communion between Protestants and Catholics is not possible (Catechism, No. 1400)…
“If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments [Penance, Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick] to other Christians… who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest the Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed” (Canon 844, No. 4). "
From catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/who-can-receive-communion.html
I doubt the Protestants spoken of previously were in danger of death, or profess the Catholic faith in receiving the Eucharist
Protestants can’t walk off the street, and go to confession to a Catholic priest, for the same reason they can’t receive the Eucharist from a Catholic priest. The reason is, they don’t believe in what the Church teaches nor will they start leading a Catholic life in the Catholic Church after they receive those sacraments. They go off and live a Protestant life again.
Fr Jose, 30+ yrs ago, had a near death experience. His guardian angel told Fr Jose, He wanted Fr Jose to 1st see hell, purgatory before seeing heaven.
Fr Jose saw in hell, priests and bishops he knew, and didn’t expect to see them there, but the angel told him, they were there for misleading people with their bad teaching and bad example. Which tells me, they led a lot of souls astray by not teaching what the Church really teaches, but instead gave their disobedient teaching, and Jesus lowered the boom on them…for ALL ETERNITY!
I heard Fr Joseph Mary Wolf of EWTN, give this homily in an EWTN mass…
youtube.com/watch?v=FeQNdXu-Uvc
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OraLabora
Guest
It’s not a sad response. It’s a matter of jurisdiction. Quite probably the monastery already has a protocol to deal with the issue.
However we’re talking here about someone speculating that a communicant might be Protestant on the basis of circumstantial evidence. If there is no concrete proof, the monks will not act on it.
One thing that gets a very cold response in a monastery, is murmuring against others without proof.
If there is concrete proof, the monks may acknowledge you politely. And they will deal with the matter internally. Don’t expect any more feedback than that.
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otjm
Guest
And why is it you feel that the monks are not protecting the Eucharist?
You are basing that on a post which in itself is difficult to follow, and is full of guesses and suppositions that someone is non-Catholic, and additionally, that the monks do not know the people they have had at a number of retreats and other matters.
In short, it is the monks business, and we all seem to be assuming they are not capable.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Every single thing the OP says in the first post about another person could easily be said of me.
Look, I’m all for protecting the Eucharist, in fact I’m probably a little too likely to police it. But we are living in times where many bishops think serial adulterers should recoeve the Eucharist. This thread even makes me shake my head…
Myob. The op doesn’t seem to know what’s going on and equates putting people on a prayer list as a sign that a non catholic is somehow desecrating Christ.
I rarely like the old sliver, plank parable but it seems to apply here!
Op…
start a prayer chain of your own. And ( gasp). You can use spontaneous prayer in place of the rosary…
Look, I’m all for protecting the Eucharist, in fact I’m probably a little too likely to police it. But we are living in times where many bishops think serial adulterers should recoeve the Eucharist. This thread even makes me shake my head…
Myob. The op doesn’t seem to know what’s going on and equates putting people on a prayer list as a sign that a non catholic is somehow desecrating Christ.
I rarely like the old sliver, plank parable but it seems to apply here!
Op…
start a prayer chain of your own. And ( gasp). You can use spontaneous prayer in place of the rosary…
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