Help a Protestant out

[patrick86]

So I have been a Protestant (Presbyterian) for all of my Christian life. A few years ago it became apparant to me that the only real reason I am a Presbyterian and not anything else is because that was how I was raised. I realized that this wasn’t the best way to go about my faith. I decided that I needed to look into Christianity more in depth. It took me a while to actually do some research on the matter and here I am reading about Catholiscm. I’ve been reading about it for about 3 months now and I will admit it is mighty fascinating. You guys do have some good arguments: the fact that it is the church that Christ started up, years of tradition, etc. Well, I could go on about all the stuff I’ve learned, but I actually do have a question.

So, I’ve been learning that maybe Christ may actually be present in Communion, Purgatory may not be that far fetched of a concept, and Sola Scriptora may not be error-proof. All of those I am not 100% sold out on but I am definitley seeing your side of things now. But, all the stuff about Mary that Catholics believe and Protestants don’t I simpily don’t get. Every piece of scripture I have read about it doesn’t convince me about her staying a virgin, being full of grace, assumption into Heaven, etc. I’ve heard some arguments from the Catholic side but I simply can’t understand. I’m not trying to be difficult either, if God wants me to be a Catholic than he will reveal the answers to me if I look for them. But as of yet I haven’t felt anything about this topic.

So, I guess what I’m asking is why do you believe what you do about Mary? And, is there any scripture to back it up. I do realize that this may be more of a tradition thing then a scripture thing, but if there is any I would love to hear it.

I consider myself to be diehard Christian. And what is more diehard than the church that Jesus himself started up. This is the first time I even gave Catholicism a chance. But I want to fully understand what it teaches.

 

[scottm]

I was you a couple years ago, and Mary was a big stumbling block for me. At my public library I found a book on the history of marian doctrine. I don’t remember the name of it, but maybe your library has something similar. It turns out that certain things about Mary have ALWAYS been believed. That fact changed my thinking.

Consider: to demand that every little detail about every little thing be in the Bible, is to impose YOUR rules upon the Apostles and their students and their student’s students. And that ain’t cool. (I used to do it myself, so don’t take this as mean criticism.) You ought to be accepting their game. Theirs.

For example, relics from the Apostles were plentiful, and their graves were known. There are no relics from Mary. There is no grave for Mary. Ask yourself why not. Ask yourself how probable it is that we would not have anything from the woman who gave birth to Jesus, who nursed him, who changed his diapers, who told him to turn water into wine, who heard him preach, who saw him die on the cross, who was there at Pentecost, etc etc etc. Mary knew Jesus better than Peter knew Jesus. Why didn’t anyone mark her grave? And save her relics?

The only reasonable answer is that Mary bodily rose to heaven to join her son.

The “full of grace” part is as old as anything else. In the Byzantine divine liturgy (Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic’s version of “mass”) it is stated numerous times. It’s a dogma to them, and this because it has ALWAYS been taught. That has to carry weight.

I wish you well, amigo. If the Roman style doesn’t suit you, give Eastern Catholicism a try. That’s what I did, and I’m forever glad. Or even give Eastern Orthodoxy a try. It’s very cool.

 

[Totterman]

I was you a couple years ago, and Mary was a big stumbling block for me. At my public library I found a book on the history of marian doctrine. I don’t remember the name of it, but maybe your library has something similar. It turns out that certain things about Mary have ALWAYS been believed. That fact changed my thinking.

Consider: to demand that every little detail about every little thing be in the Bible, is to impose YOUR rules upon the Apostles and their students and their student’s students. And that ain’t cool. (I used to do it myself, so don’t take this as mean criticism.) You ought to be accepting their game. Theirs.

For example, relics from the Apostles were plentiful, and their graves were known. There are no relics from Mary. There is no grave for Mary. Ask yourself why not. Ask yourself how probable it is that we would not have anything from the woman who gave birth to Jesus, who nursed him, who changed his diapers, who told him to turn water into wine, who heard him preach, who saw him die on the cross, who was there at Pentecost, etc etc etc. Mary knew Jesus better than Peter knew Jesus. Why didn’t anyone mark her grave? And save her relics?

The only reasonable answer is that Mary bodily rose to heaven to join her son.

The “full of grace” part is as old as anything else. In the Byzantine divine liturgy (Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic’s version of “mass”) it is stated numerous times. It’s a dogma to them, and this because it has ALWAYS been taught. That has to carry weight.

I wish you well, amigo. If the Roman style doesn’t suit you, give Eastern Catholicism a try. That’s what I did, and I’m forever glad. Or even give Eastern Orthodoxy a try. It’s very cool.

 

[Totterman]

Totterman:
The question of our Blessed Virgin sometimes confuse people,and I see that it is easy.But she is the one who pray for us in heaven,and as Jesus mother,and the one who told Jesus (when He turned water into wine) when “start” His mission,she is importen. And the fact that there are no relics,no grave,is evidence that she wos taken to heaven like Jesus wos. If You read moore,You will find how big role she had in Jesus life,and she wos chosen by God himself,to give birth to Gods only son,You have lived as a protestant all Your life,and thats why there is things You need to learn,and because the catholic churc wos founded by Jesus himself,when He gave the keys to heaven to St.Peter. But back to Your basic question. You can,and You should,ask Virgin Mary to pray for You,and in that prayer You feel Her present in Your life just as You feel Jeesus.

 

[Parce_Domine]

“Full of grace” is a title from God, delivered by His messenger in greeting her. “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” Catholics aren’t known for memorizing verses, so if anyone wants to provide the Scriptural reference for the Annunciation…

“Full of grace” is a title from God, delivered by His messenger in greeting her. “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.” Catholics aren’t known for memorizing verses, so if anyone wants to provide the Scriptural reference for the Annunciation…

It’s from the Gospel of Luke, 1:28 “And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

 

[LongJohnSilver]

Do you know Scott Hahn? He was a former protestant, maybe even from the same denomination as you are. He wrote several apologetic works on Catholicism, including one on Mary, called Hail, Holy Queen. You might want to pick that up. It’s very good and answers your questions.

 

[DexUK]

I guess that what you need to get a handle on is the whole Tradition thing.

Some things are not recorded in the canonical books of the Bible but we’ve had to get our theology and practises from somewhere. This relates to what has been accepted from the earliest days of the Church - right back to Christ.

Remember that the tradition of the Church got started while Mary was still alive. The Apostles were out there teaching anyone who would listen about her Son. The structure of the Church started to form at that time. Remember that the New Testament is first ordered towards the specific teachings about Jesus and then about the spread of the Gospel after His Ascension into Heaven. It gives us the basis from which our theology grew - and remember a lot of that theology is shared with protestantism. Much more joins us than divides us.

So, the Church got going with the Apostles when Mary was in their midst. And then, assuming Mary lived an average life span, she would no longer have been among them. Now that could have been 40 years after the crucifixion. We don’t know. But what we can say from looking at what the Church has believed since virtually the very beginning, was that Mary at some point was no longer present and the knowledge of and belief in her Assumption, body and soul, into Heaven became common place. In the early days of the Church, when the Holy Spirit was lending all Christians so much assistance, can you imagine that, as has been said, we would have been able to believe a story of an Assumption if there had been the opportunity to mark the grave or at least the locality in which she died?

The traces and artefacts left by holy people are very very important to the Church. Just look at the multitude of fragments of ‘the one true cross’ that proliferated in the early centuries! Whether or not the sum total of such fragments amounts to one tree or a whole forest, it is peculiar, nay extraordinary, that not one fragment of Our Lady’s time on earth has ever been believed to have existed. And it is from this that we can trust the Tradition of the Church - that is to say, we can have faith in it and incorporated it into The Faith.

Now then, Mary being full of Grace. Well, as others have pointed out, this is a direct quote from scripture. This grace, of course, being directly from God, not in the modern sense of the word which can relate to ‘deportment’, although one would have thought that Our Lady’s deportment was, indeed, most graceful if, as we believe, she was allowed to be born free from the stain of sin.

Some people think that Catholics ‘worship’ Mary as though she were divine - indeed some people think we ‘worship’ all the saints, and call it wrong. And it is - in that we don’t worship anyone but the Trinity. What we do instead, is call on the saints for their help from time to time, starting the Mary and working on out. We believe that the Church consists of not only us here on earth, alive now, but also all the souls of all those who have gone before us. We worship God here and now, so how much more do you think we’ll worship Him when we see Him face to face? How could the souls of the faithful departed not participate in the Church? Why then can we not ask, in prayer, those who are there already, to put in a good word for us? And who better to intercede for us than Mary herself, who was mother to Jesus and therefore to the whole Church, both temporal and eternal?

We would love you to be able to understand more about us. There are many ways in which you could do that. Try for example books by Fulton Sheen, an archbishop who wrote in a very accessible style. Try also, for more spiritual and very gentle works, the books by Cardinal Basil Hume of England. They aren’t meaty, bash you over the head with fundamental theology books. They’re written for the ‘every man’ among us.

If you want to get closer to our faith, pick a Catholic parish church or two and come and experience our forms of worship. The Mass is structured the same everywhere but the presentation can be quite different, so don’t be put off if the style of one isn’t to your tastes. Sometimes it’s folk music and a bunch of hippy pensioners, other times it’s gorgeous organs and choirs, or you can have quiet spoken Masses or family Masses with kids sometimes running amok! We’re a broad church but we still focus on the Mass. If you attend and want to go up in line at Communion time, just cross your arms over your chest when you get to the priest so you can have a blessing, since I’m sure you’ll appreciate that Communion is reserved for Catholics.

I’m very glad you’re taking a look at us. Maybe you’ll start an RCIA course and come the whole way straight away, maybe you won’t. In any case, we’re here for you and Christ waits for you. We hope, in His name, that you will feel moved to become a member of our family. I cannot tell you how warm it makes me feel to know that I am in this community of fellow believers. It’s like being blanketed in love, and I’m sure you can guess where that love comes from.

 

[JRKH]

Do you know Scott Hahn? He was a former protestant, maybe even from the same denomination as you are. He wrote several apologetic works on Catholicism, including one on Mary, called Hail, Holy Queen. You might want to pick that up. It’s very good and answers your questions.

This is an excellent suggestion.

Mary can be a stumbling block to many who look at the Church. My suggestion is to not get too concerned about this right now. Satisfy yourself that the Catholic Church IS the authoritative Church founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles and has been preserved through their successors to this day.
Once you have satisfied yourself on this matter, other teachings from the Church become easier to accept (even those we don’t fully understand).

Peace
James

 

[Tietjen]

Every piece of scripture I have read about it doesn’t convince me about her staying a virgin, being full of grace, assumption into Heaven, etc. I’ve heard some arguments from the Catholic side but I simply can’t understand. I’m not trying to be difficult either, if God wants me to be a Catholic than he will reveal the answers to me if I look for them. But as of yet I haven’t felt anything about this topic.

On the issue of Mary being a virgin - Pretty much all Christians (Catholic & Protestants) believe that Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth; and of course we see this plainly being prophezied about in various places in the Old Testiment as well as being spoken of within the New Testiment. However, many Protestants of today disregard the possibility that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ simply because it is not found in the Bible. This was NOT always so however. Even Luther had this to say about the virginity of Mary:
Luther's Works:

Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…

Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.

Now there are at least two possibilities associated with the perpetual virginity of Mary that can be expressed and believed within the Catholic Church. The first (oldest backed up by the earliest of the Church Fathers) is that Joseph was an older man who had been widowed. He had children from his previous wife prior to his marriage to Mary and these children were then considered the brothers and sisters of Christ. This possibility makes the most sense to me as it would also help explain why Joseph isn’t mentioned in the Bible during the later years of Christ’s life. It’s because he may have been an older man when Christ was born and had died during Christ’s youth. This would also explain why Christ (while hanging on the cross) gave John the responsibility of watching over His mother instead of Joseph who most certainly would have been the one had he still been alive.

It was St Jerome who introduced the second possibility of how Jesus might have had “brothers and sisters.” Jerome introduced (in the 4th century) the possibility that these people may in fact be cousins rather than brothers of Christ. Jerome came to this hypothesis since in Jewish idiom “cousins” were also referred to as “brethren.”

In closing, you have said that “… Sola Scriptora may not be error-proof.” If you have come to this possibility then you understand that the Bible does not contain every detail that is worthy of belief. In fact, the Bible testifies to this in the words of St. Paul who calls us to hold on to Sacred Tradition, St. Timothy, and in the words found in John 21:25. I would suggest that perhaps it is not too far fetched to believe that a person can actually live out their life as a virgin. It is certainly more believable than say, God allowing Himself to be crucified; and I’m sure that both you and I have no problem believing this Truth.

 

[Bbigam]

Mary can be a stumbling block to many who look at the Church. My suggestion is to not get too concerned about this right now. Satisfy yourself that the Catholic Church IS the authoritative Church founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles and has been preserved through their successors to this day.
Once you have satisfied yourself on this matter, other teachings from the Church become easier to accept (even those we don’t fully understand).

Good points. I just wanted to share my perspective from when I was considering becoming Catholic a year and a half ago. For me, like you suggest I didn’t have to totally understand everything, and I made the decision to convert (through the grace of God) still not understanding a lot of the Church’s teaching particularly on Mary and Purgatory. I just accepted that the Church had that authority, and understood things I didn’t get yet (and then I kept, and keep, studying).

However, before I could accept that the Church had that authority and fullness of Truth, there were stumbling blocks - as in, I couldn’t accept that authority if I still thought the Church might be wrong on something. For me the Eucharist was the big one. Once I understood and accepted Church teaching on the Eucharist, everything else either fell into place or fell into the the “I accept it but don’t yet understand it” category.

Maybe for Patrick86, Catholic teaching on Mary is the stumbling block, that he needs to get past to move from, “The Church might be wrong” to “the Church is right even if I don’t quite get it yet.” I haven’t read Hail, Holy Queen, but I’m sure it’s great and may be what he needs. For me the book was A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong (with large sections of chapter 6 of the Gospel of John).

Patrick, I pray that you can make the leap as soon as possible! By the way, you already have a great patron saint. St. Patrick, pray for us!

 

[JRKH]

Good points. I just wanted to share my perspective from when I was considering becoming Catholic a year and a half ago. For me, like you suggest I didn’t have to totally understand everything, and I made the decision to convert (through the grace of God) still not understanding a lot of the Church’s teaching particularly on Mary and Purgatory. I just accepted that the Church had that authority, and understood things I didn’t get yet (and then I kept, and keep, studying).

However, before I could accept that the Church had that authority and fullness of Truth, there were stumbling blocks - as in, I couldn’t accept that authority if I still thought the Church might be wrong on something. For me the Eucharist was the big one. Once I understood and accepted Church teaching on the Eucharist, everything else either fell into place or fell into the the “I accept it but don’t yet understand it” category.

Maybe for Patrick86, Catholic teaching on Mary is the stumbling block, that he needs to get past to move from, “The Church might be wrong” to “the Church is right even if I don’t quite get it yet.” I haven’t read Hail, Holy Queen, but I’m sure it’s great and may be what he needs. For me the book was A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong (with large sections of chapter 6 of the Gospel of John).

Patrick, I pray that you can make the leap as soon as possible! By the way, you already have a great patron saint. St. Patrick, pray for us!

Well stated, and It was not my intent to belittle Patricks questions on Mary. My only wish was to try and help keep things in perspective. The main issue MUST be whether the Church is the Authoritatve body with the power to “bind and Loose…Whatever”
Once this is recognized, it is far easier to investigate the various teachings because one is not coming from a perspective that the church must “convince” them on every issue.

Peace
James

 

[taylor2]

I think of it like this. When you go for a job interview, and your brother already works for the boss, isn’t it better for your brother to put in a good word for you than if you had to go for the interview without the boss knowing anything about you?

Just a thought.

 

[Jingerly44]

It seems everything pertinent has already been said in regards to our Lady in terms of the faith as a whole. However, I would say that it’s important to understand everything not only as a whole, but as a reasonable whole.

One of my personal friends, and a long term friend of my family, is an Evangelical. I used to struggle to explain the full faith to him, he would get stuck on something like the papacy or our Lady. Everything needed to be explicit in the bible to be true. Then I showed him a handwritten note. It said:

"You Devil! When I get my hands on you I’m going to kill you! I’ve warned you before, but this time I’ve had enough. XXX "

When I showed him it he laughed and he was also moved. I asked him why? He replied, " It’s one of those notes you would leave for your mom when she went out without telling you" (my mother suffered from dementia and at the early stages she would sometimes sneak out of the house alone. Before leaving to search for her I would leave a note for her in case she found her way home before I found her). I told him him he was quite right. Then I asked him what someone would think if they read it 2000 years from now and had nothing but the note (sola scriptura) without the understanding that explained what it actually meant (tradition - handing on)? I suggested that they would say it was clear that I hated my mother and was intent on brutally killing her. He could only laugh. I pointed to the note and said, 'Look! It’s there! In black and white…You can’t get round it with “tradition”. It’s perspicuous!"

You see my point?

P.S. The ‘XXX’ in the note were kisses

 

[joeantony]

Hi Patric86,

It is indeed a blessing of the Holy Spirit that you started finding out the truth. Neither I am claiming that the Holy Spirit does not work on protestant brothers or sisters nor I am suggesting that the moment you become a Catholic you will experience very vivid manifestation of Holy Spirit in your life. It has to be understood and felt spiritually and intellectually.

About Holy Mary who confuses you,

The Marian Theology or doctrines of the Catholic Church is evolved through centuries ,starting from the very early days of the Church to today and it still goes on. The Dogma of the Church ( specifically we are talking about Mary here) is derived out of the collective and cumulative wisdom that the Church acquired during the course of time, through the study of scriptures, events in the life of Christ Jesus and Mary, early traditions of the church and many events in the history of the Church. We also cannot forget that the Marian apparitions recent and not so recent caused a better and more affirmative stand on the role, importance and truths about Mary.

We can find 1000 s of books written by many theologians, religious and lay people about Mary,explaining convincingly the credible teaching of the Catholic Church.

The problem might occur when we try to look at the Dogmas of the Catholic church with a preconceived notion of being fallible or through the Protestant prism. If you seek “sola scriptura” approach while trying to understand Mary, you will most likely be mislead or not convinced at all.

Before you try to dissect the scripture and also before going all the way back to the very beginning of the Church to find out if you are getting convinced, Read about the Four Dogmas about Mary that catholic Church teaches. I suggest you don’t make that a brief one. If Possible read extensively.

The Four Dogmas are:
1-Divine Motherhood
2-Perpetual Virginity
3-Immaculate Conception
4-Assumption

There is a fifth Dogma " Co-Redemptrix" which I believe is in the process of finalizing . I am not sure if it is already announced. Everyone is free to educate me on this one. I am sure if it is going to be so, a huge plus for the Catholic Church. After all we know what our Holy Mother does.

Once we know about these dogmas, we will come to know if we can be so “sola scriptura” on these issues.

I wish you wisdom, patience and understanding and will pray for you my friend ( even if you stay as a protestant)

Best of luck,
Joe

 

[dailey]

I was you a couple years ago, and Mary was a big stumbling block for me. At my public library I found a book on the history of marian doctrine. I don’t remember the name of it, but maybe your library has something similar. It turns out that certain things about Mary have ALWAYS been believed. That fact changed my thinking.

Consider: to demand that every little detail about every little thing be in the Bible, is to impose YOUR rules upon the Apostles and their students and their student’s students. And that ain’t cool. (I used to do it myself, so don’t take this as mean criticism.) You ought to be accepting their game. Theirs.

For example, relics from the Apostles were plentiful, and their graves were known. There are no relics from Mary. There is no grave for Mary. Ask yourself why not. Ask yourself how probable it is that we would not have anything from the woman who gave birth to Jesus, who nursed him, who changed his diapers, who told him to turn water into wine, who heard him preach, who saw him die on the cross, who was there at Pentecost, etc etc etc. Mary knew Jesus better than Peter knew Jesus. Why didn’t anyone mark her grave? And save her relics?

The only reasonable answer is that Mary bodily rose to heaven to join her son.

The “full of grace” part is as old as anything else. In the Byzantine divine liturgy (Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic’s version of “mass”) it is stated numerous times. It’s a dogma to them, and this because it has ALWAYS been taught. That has to carry weight.

I wish you well, amigo. If the Roman style doesn’t suit you, give Eastern Catholicism a try. That’s what I did, and I’m forever glad. Or even give Eastern Orthodoxy a try. It’s very cool.

I have a question about your last paragraph. What is the difference between Roman and Eastern? Don’t Catholics all follow the Magisterium?

 

[dailey]

Also, I hear “sola scriptura” being used a lot so I googled it. Am I correct in understanding that it means that only what is taught in the bible is needed for salvation? So that means Catholics don’t believe in it? Thanks

 

[TinaG]

So I have been a Protestant (Presbyterian) for all of my Christian life. A few years ago it became apparant to me that the only real reason I am a Presbyterian and not anything else is because that was how I was raised. I realized that this wasn’t the best way to go about my faith. I decided that I needed to look into Christianity more in depth. It took me a while to actually do some research on the matter and here I am reading about Catholiscm. I’ve been reading about it for about 3 months now and I will admit it is mighty fascinating. You guys do have some good arguments: the fact that it is the church that Christ started up, years of tradition, etc. Well, I could go on about all the stuff I’ve learned, but I actually do have a question.

So, I’ve been learning that maybe Christ may actually be present in Communion, Purgatory may not be that far fetched of a concept, and Sola Scriptora may not be error-proof. All of those I am not 100% sold out on but I am definitley seeing your side of things now. But, all the stuff about Mary that Catholics believe and Protestants don’t I simpily don’t get. Every piece of scripture I have read about it doesn’t convince me about her staying a virgin, being full of grace, assumption into Heaven, etc. I’ve heard some arguments from the Catholic side but I simply can’t understand. I’m not trying to be difficult either, if God wants me to be a Catholic than he will reveal the answers to me if I look for them. But as of yet I haven’t felt anything about this topic.

So, I guess what I’m asking is why do you believe what you do about Mary? And, is there any scripture to back it up. I do realize that this may be more of a tradition thing then a scripture thing, but if there is any I would love to hear it.

I consider myself to be diehard Christian. And what is more diehard than the church that Jesus himself started up. This is the first time I even gave Catholicism a chance. But I want to fully understand what it teaches.

Hi!

I think it is great that you are exploring your faith, and that part of that exploration is discovering what Catholicism teaches. Where I hesitate, however, is at an indication that you have not explored what it means to be Presbyterian - more exactly, Reformed. Catholics and the Reformed walk arm in arm on many issues, but there are severe and sharp disagreements, and the reasons are complex and subtle when you start looking at it.

I was surprised when you said maybe Christ may actually be present in Communion because we, anyway, in the EPC insist He is actually present spiritually but not physically. You need to study this and the other points you brought up from a Reformed background, to be fair to yourself and others, as you explore the Catholic position on this and other issues.

Regarding Mary, we try to be silent where Scripture is silent. Much of this is an area where the Scripture has not spoken, and so Presbyterians do not go there dogmatically. We are free to believe whatever, as long as it does not violate Scriptural principles and statements. Whether Catholic teaching on Mary does so has been the matter for many many threads and heated debates on CAF. A quick search will probably pull up a fair number of them for your perusal.

You do need to fully understand where Catholics and Presbyterians agree and disagree before you make a decision to leave one for the other. If I were you I would not just read one side. I have my suspicions.

-Tina “If I can post this without getting shot I am doing well” G

 

[Apryl]

But, all the stuff about Mary that Catholics believe and Protestants don’t I simpily don’t get. Every piece of scripture I have read about it doesn’t convince me about her staying a virgin, being full of grace, assumption into Heaven, etc. I’ve heard some arguments from the Catholic side but I simply can’t understand. I’m not trying to be difficult either, if God wants me to be a Catholic than he will reveal the answers to me if I look for them. But as of yet I haven’t felt anything about this topic.

So, I guess what I’m asking is why do you believe what you do about Mary? And, is there any scripture to back it up. I do realize that this may be more of a tradition thing then a scripture thing, but if there is any I would love to hear it.

I love questions like this because they are so easy to relate to. Every one, I think, at some point or another, has to at least ASK these questions.

I am not a person who can do a lot of scripture quoting (although I will be providing some for you that I grabbed from my Scriptural Cheat Sheet) but I can tell you some of the things that I happen to believe and why I believe these things.

Mary is a Virgin. I don’t believe that any one who claims to be a Christian denies her virginity at the time of the birth of Christ, but ‘c’mon: you mean to tell me that she and Joseph never did the marital-do?’… see… doesn’t that even LOOK disrespectful?

I believe that Mary, who was the first tabernacle for the body of Christ, was kept a virgin. Her role as the Mother of God would trump any physical, carnal needs or desires. Joseph, being part of this miracle himself, in his own way, would have not had the desires to desecrate the tabernacle of the body of Christ.

Even in modern times, people seem to have major issues with people not having sexual relations. ‘How can they do that?’. But there ARE people who not only are not having sexual intercourse, are not even desiring it for years at at time.

This is how and why I can believe that Mary remained EVER VIRGIN.

While Mary and Joseph were married and marriage is normally coupled with ‘marital relations’, but Mary and Joseph are not Margo and Hank, so they are not going to live the life that any one else ever of any time have lived.

Mary if ‘Full of Grace’ because it says so in scripture. There is the reading in the book of Luke. It says (this is from memory. I’ll pull my references later) ‘Hail, Full of Grace’. This goes back to the book of Isaiah where there are many references to Mary. She is full of Grace… and again, why would she not be? She’s the mother of our Lord.

The Assumption of Mary into heaven, body and soul, uncorrupted, is something I’ve had problems with myself. However, for me, it’s not a big deal. The reason for me having problems is that some people have so much description of how this happened and when and who was present and people seeing it… I don’t know about that. I am aware that the Church has defined the doctrine/dogma that Mary was assumed into Heaven and that this happened because the Mother of God would not be allowed to corrupt. That’s enough for me. I don’t get bothered. I also intend to read the Book of Judith (it’s one of the Deuterocanonical Books) for more information on why the Church made this definition.
But usually, when I’m trying to explain things to non-Catholics, I use their sources. As a Protestant, your Bible doesn’t have this Book of Judith. However, there is nothing in scripture that talks about the death of Mary. Nothing about her burial. Why would the Bible, which is such an important historical document, not list the death of the Mother of our Lord, even though there is so much other information included. They don’t talk about a lot of other deaths, but there is nothing to defy the belief that Mary was assumed.

Here’s my quotes from Christopher Wong’s Scriptural Cheat Sheet:thumbsup:

Mary
Gen 5:24; Heb 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1-13 … Enoch and Elijah taken to heaven.
Lk 1:28 … annunciation.
Lk 1:42-48 … blessed among women. All generations shall call her blessed.
2 Tim 4:8, Jas 1:12, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 2:10 … coronation awaits saints.
Jn 2:1-5 … Mary’s intercession.
Jn 19:26-27; Rev 12:17 … suggests Mary’s motherhood of all Christians.
1 Kings 2:19 … queen mother, intercessor.

Hope this helps!

 

[JRKH]

Hi Patric86,

It is indeed a blessing of the Holy Spirit that you started finding out the truth. Neither I am claiming that the Holy Spirit does not work on protestant brothers or sisters nor I am suggesting that the moment you become a Catholic you will experience very vivid manifestation of Holy Spirit in your life. It has to be understood and felt spiritually and intellectually.

About Holy Mary who confuses you,

The Marian Theology or doctrines of the Catholic Church is evolved through centuries ,starting from the very early days of the Church to today and it still goes on. The Dogma of the Church ( specifically we are talking about Mary here) is derived out of the collective and cumulative wisdom that the Church acquired during the course of time, through the study of scriptures, events in the life of Christ Jesus and Mary, early traditions of the church and many events in the history of the Church. We also cannot forget that the Marian apparitions recent and not so recent caused a better and more affirmative stand on the role, importance and truths about Mary.

We can find 1000 s of books written by many theologians, religious and lay people about Mary,explaining convincingly the credible teaching of the Catholic Church.

The problem might occur when we try to look at the Dogmas of the Catholic church with a preconceived notion of being fallible or through the Protestant prism. If you seek “sola scriptura” approach while trying to understand Mary, you will most likely be mislead or not convinced at all.

Before you try to dissect the scripture and also before going all the way back to the very beginning of the Church to find out if you are getting convinced, Read about the Four Dogmas about Mary that catholic Church teaches. I suggest you don’t make that a brief one. If Possible read extensively.

The Four Dogmas are:
1-Divine Motherhood
2-Perpetual Virginity
3-Immaculate Conception
4-Assumption

There is a fifth Dogma " Co-Redemptrix" which I believe is in the process of finalizing . I am not sure if it is already announced. Everyone is free to educate me on this one. I am sure if it is going to be so, a huge plus for the Catholic Church. After all we know what our Holy Mother does.

Once we know about these dogmas, we will come to know if we can be so “sola scriptura” on these issues.

I wish you wisdom, patience and understanding and will pray for you my friend ( even if you stay as a protestant)

Best of luck,
Joe

In regards to the so called fifth Marian Dogma that you mention. This definitely NOT in any sort of “Finalization”. It is simply a matter that has been under some discussion.
There is no need to bring this in here as it is not something that has to be believed and accepted.

Peace
James

 

[Nita]

…
So, I guess what I’m asking is why do you believe what you do about Mary? And, is there any scripture to back it up. I do realize that this may be more of a tradition thing then a scripture thing, but if there is any I would love to hear it.
.

There are Scripture passages that are cited in support of the Marian doctrines – but many of them are typological. Here are passages I’m familiar with.

Mary’s** Immaculate Conception:**
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,(“woman” refers to Mary; “enmity” indicates no connection with the serpent, thus no sin)

*Exodus 25:10-11 "They shall make an ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. *
(The ark, which carried the word of God on stone tablets within it, is considered a “type” of Mary, who carried the Word of God within her womb. The “pure gold, within and without” speak of the beauty and immaculateness of her interior soul and exterior life.)

Luke 1:28 "Hail, full of grace,
(the word “full of grace” is used as Mary’s name – “Hail kecharitomene,” – names in Scripture, especially those assigned by God - in this case, thru His angel, demonstrate a reality about the person.)

Luke 1:41 “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.”
(These are the words of Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit. The same word “blessed” that is used for Jesus, is used for Mary also. This parallel usage suggests that like Jesus, Mary also from the womb was free from sin.)

Mary’s** Perpetual Virginity ***
Luke 1:34 “How shall this be done, because I know not man?” *
(Being betrothed, Mary’s question wouldn’t make sense if it was to be a normal marriage. Thus it has been inferred that Mary had made a vow of virginity.)

*Ezekiel 44:1-2 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. *
(The eastern gate considered as a type for Mary.)

*Canticles (Song of Songs) 4:12 A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. *
(The locked garden considered as a type for Mary.)

Mary’s** Assumption***
Psalm 132:8 (131:8 Douay) Arise, O LORD, into thy resting place: thou and the ark, which thou hast sanctified."*
(The ark as a type of Mary.)

*Canticles (Song of Songs) 8:5 Who is this that cometh up from the desert, flowing with delights, leaning upon her beloved?" *

*Rev 11:19-12:1 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; *
(The correlation between the ark/woman/Mary clear in these two verses and the rest of chapter 12 in Revelations.)

I do not know if, or how many of these Scripture passages appear in the official documents defining the above doctrines, but they are passages that have been cited by various Church fathers and theologians in speaking about these teachings.